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Back to the drawing board. after checking through all the info given by the Merseyside genology society. the Mary Deegan that James Cain married is born to late to be connected to the John Deggan that Agnes,s sister, Susannah married. So this is not the connection. :-(

Thank you for posting this, David


I'm glad we could help you sort it all out




sylvia

A big thankyou to all who helped on this Thread.
With all the info supplied and with the help of the Mersyside geneology Society, it appears that Edward Irvine and Edward Peter Irving are / is the same person.
1891 census shows Agnes Irvine age 22 born carlise 1869 and Edward Irvine age 4 born Liverpool.
as we know there is no birth registered in or around Liverpool for Edward in 1887.
Agnes was actualy born Agnes Irving in 1869 in Carlise to a John and Mary Irving.
The variation of the name Irving to Irvine is a common occurence in the census, especialy around the Liverpool area due to a large amount of illiteracy around the 18 /1900,s.
Agnes had a sister Susannah Irving who married a John Deegan.
With the information given on the WW1 pensions stating he was a coal hewer and giving James Cain as next of kin Nephew, it turns out that James cain was his uncle.

James Cain married Mary Deegan in 1900, the sister of John Deegan making Edward HIS nephew and not the other way round.

after a lot of digging, we may have located Edwards birth.
.
There is a birth entry in 1887 in Staines Middlesex for Irving Male unamed
Apr/May/Jun Volume 3A page No 4.
It may be a coincidence, but Agnes,s mother was born in Staines and that due to the fact of her unmarried condition she may have been whisked off to Staines by her mother.
As the Staines Register closed in 1947 i have e-mailed Slough registrar to see if they can give further help with this cert.
It may or may not be the right cert and it may or may not give the fathers name.
As for Edward Peter Irving giving his fathers name as Edward Irving (seaman) there could be 2 explanations.
(A) she just made it up due to the lack of a father to Edward and a sailor would be the perfect excuse for his abcence.
(B) As there is an Edward Irving Sailor in the 1891 census, and that Agnes and this Edward lived in very close proximity to one another, they could have been having an affair and she fell pregnant.
this could possibly explain why she was whisked of to Staines to have the child as being catholic, abortions were frowned upon.
this of course is all summise.

once again thankyou to all who contributed to this thread, as without all your digging in the first place, wouldnt have been able to reach the conclusion.

Hit marie, i misunderstood the thread process and it was causing confusion, so the other 2 threads were deleted but most of the info is on this one but i made a copy of info on the other thread and will update tommorow

David - where have your other threads gone with the useful info on?

Thankyou for the info on Bessie and yes im going to join ancestory in a couple of weeks 2 many bills this last month lol

Hi sorry for the mix up with the extra threads, my apologies. a small bit of progress. I can rule out the Edward Irving in the 1891 census living at jolittle street as he was born edward winter irving and shows up in the 1911 census as being married with 4 children. so maybe 2 possibles.
(1) that edward irvine and edward peter irving is the same person.
1891 census age 4 (1887) living at 14 gerard Street. mothers name agnes age 22. 1901 census shows an Edward Irvine . and in 1911 census living at 5 -8 Christian Street with a james cain and lists his job as a coal seller. on the ww1 pension record above it shows the same info and the kiffin st could be a mispelling notice the 5 in front of kiffin. maybe he changed his name on purpose because it seems he was born out of wedlock. and he may have just made up a fathers name and employment as being a catholic it was frowned upon to be born out of wedlock.
(2) 1891 census edward irving age 9 living at 41 prince edwin lane. with his father age 42 seaman. in 1901 census 10 cromwell terrace garden lane living with his father who is now a dock labourer and his sister. this census shows he has a middle name and there is a birth entry 8B 388 for him as edward richard irving. i cannot find a marriage or death record for him though. there is a 5 year difference in age to that on the marriage cert for edward peter irving and why would you change your middle name,

any thoughts on this and thankyou.

David

The 1891 Census says that Bessie Bates (nee Hamitlon) was born at Seaa off Samaria, British Subject


I'll try to do a bit more digging in a little while




sylvia

David


Did you take in that marriage record that I posted early today


Winifred Bates marrying Edward Peter Irving


His age is shown as 28, and hers as 21 ......................... so 1903 is far far too late.




Ancestry is carrying Liverpool Baptisms, Marriages and Burials.


You can look at the ACTUAL parish register, and see your ancestors' actual handwriting.



You might wish to consider taking out a subscription to ancestry. Well worth!!




sylvia

David....Here is the entry for Edward...Reg.Dec1902 Liverpool.

Irving Edward Peter S Liverpool 8b 100

thank you all for taking the time to find this info, i have found some of the info mentioned. i also found an winifred p bates in the 1911 census age 8 in an orphanage so born 1903 but cannot find a birth entry. and an edward p.s.irving born 1903 so until i can get my fathers birth cert and more info i wont fully know. liverpool city council allow you access to the microfilms (6 hour session for 20 euro) so it may be a trip across the irish sea to liverpool in the near future. tc and thanks

David...Following on from what Sylvia has found for you..and presuming (should never really do that !!) the above being the correct family then this is the 1881 Census for Theo.T.Bates and family....Took some finding...note how his name is spelt..

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
William BATES Head M Male 49 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Master Dyer
Julia E. BATES Wife M Female 49 Liverpool,
** Tophitus T. BATES*** Son U Male 21 Liverpool, Dyer (Undef)
Julia E. BATES Daur U Female 19 Liverpool, Formerly Scholar
Charles I. BATES Son U Male 15 Liverpool, Drapers Apprentice
Henry B. BATES Son U Male 13 Liverpool, Scholar
Eliza M. BATES Daur U Female 11 Liverpool, Scholar
Maka A. BATES Daur Female 7 Liverpool, Scholar
Margaret FLOOD Serv U Female 19 Ramsay, Isle of Man, England Domestic Servant


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 150 Crown St
Census Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341867
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3622 / 73
Page Number 3

again, a possible find

from ancestry

WW1 records.


Just a suggestion that this might be your grandfather


British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 about Edward Peter Irving

Name: Edward Peter Irving
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Age at enlistment: 25
Birth Parish: Liverpool
Birth County: Lancashire
Document Year: 1912
Regimental Number: 1537
Regiment Name: 8th (Irish) Back. L. Regiment
Number of images: 5


According to one of the images, the regiment is actually 8th (Irish) Batt. "The King's" (L'pool Reg't)


He was 5' 4½" tall

Joined on 24 -4-1912

Discharged as medically unfit on 8-11-1914



THIS Edward Peter lists his next of kin as Nephew James Cain, 5 Kiffin St (???spelling).

Before enlisting, he was a Coal Hewer





needs very careful checking of course!




sylvia

from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Theophilus Tunstall Bates

Name: Theophilus Tunstall Bates
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 26 Sep 1883
Parish: Edge Hill St Cyprian
Spouse's Name: Bessie Hamilton
Father's Name: William Tunstall Bates
Spouse Father's Name: ---- Hamilton (deceased)

Theophilus:-
Occupation:- dyer


Theophilus' baptism

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Theophilas Bates

Name: Theophilas Bates
Birth Date: abt 1859
Baptism Date: 25 Dec 1859
Parish: Liverpool St Silas, Pembroke Place
Father's Name: William Janstall Bates
Mother's Name: Julia Emma Bates



father's name on actual register is William Tunstall Bates


Address:- 29 Ashton Street
Father Occupation:- Dyer




sylvia

from ancestry


Winifred in 1901

1901 Census

Name: Winifred Bates
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Theophilus Bates
Mother's Name: Bessie Bates
Gender: Female
Where born: Birkenhead, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: Stoneycroft All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern

Theophilus Bates 41 b.ca 1860, Liverpool, Carter on Nursery
Bessie Bates 38 b.ca 1863, At Sea [on] British Ship
William Bates 14 b.ca 1887, Liverpool, Painter's Apprentice
Percival Bates 11 b.ca 1890, Liverpool
Winifred Bates 4

Address:- 5 Tanhouse (??sp) Lane



sylvia

I wonder if this could possibly be your grandfather's burial???


Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988 about Edward Peter Irving

Name: Edward Peter Irving
Burial Date: 19 May 1938
Parish: Ford Cemetery


from image of cemetery record:-

Age:- 51
Address:- 107 Rice Lane
Grave:- 3161



age 51 in 1938 suggests a birth year of ca 1887

age 28 on marriage in 1917 suggests a birth year of ca 1887



Circumstantial evidence until you can find out more!





sylvia

from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Winafred Emily Bates

Name: Winafred Emily Bates
Birth Year: abt 1896
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 13 May 1917
Parish: Everton Emmanuel
Spouse's Name: Edward Peter Irving
Father's Name: Theophilus Bates
Spouse Father's Name: Edward Irving


from image:-

Edward:-
Bachelor
Occupation:- Lance Corporal, K.L.R
Address:- 5 Severs Grove
Father:- deceased, Sailor

Winifred:-
Spinster
no occupaton shown
Address:- 5 Severs grove
Father:-Jobber

Witnesses:- Charles Percy Bates and Margaret Green




so the two you found are NOT your grandparents.


If Edward was 28, it means he was born ca 1890 +/ 2 years, and Winifred was born in 1896.


Incidentally, it is Winifred on the certificate ...... the Winafred is a mis-transcription





sylvia

My earlier message seems to have gone astray but until 1929 the marriagable age was 14 for boys and 12 for girls.

Get this marriag certificate:

http://www.ukbmdsearch.org.uk/certapp.php?type=marriages&data=IRVING%7cEdward%20P%7cBATES%7cWinifred%20E%7cEverton%2c%20Emmanuel%7cLiverpool%7c1917%7c1917%7c%7cLL%3a2100WD%2f4%2f481%7cI%7c9548%7clancashire%7cLL&lang=

once again thankyou, its a bit of a conundrum, i have found W.E who you refer to but cannot find a connectoin to E.P irving i have found a W.E born in 1903 and a edward peter Staddart irving born in 1903 married in 1917 but this makes them at appx 14/15 years old, his father was a well to do school teacher in birkenhead with servants n the house and this may sound prudish but i cannot see a school teacher allowing his 14/15 year old son marry a girl from an orphanage. im new to this family stuff, and i hope im posting this right, i would like to try and keep in contact just to let you know if i ever get to the bottom of it , lol is there anyway we can add each other to contacts