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I've been frustratingly log-jammed with my family history research for several years now so if anybody out there can help find a breakthrough then I'd be indebted hugely !!!

I have a marriage certificate for WILLIAM YOUNG v ELIZABETH HOWELL, St Andrews, Bordesley, 13/05/1883. William is shown as being a 24 year old "Sawyer" living at Keeley Street (Aston, Birmingham). His father is shown as William and occupation as "Carter". Witnesses at marriage were William Baldwin and Ellen Bayliss.

My frustraing problem is that I can not find William either before the marriage or in the immediate years after the wedding (eg: 1891 and 1901 census records).

I have birth certificates from their many children from 1896 onwards but I can't find any birth records for what I know to have been children they had between their marriage and 1896 ....... in particular their son William (yes another one !) b.1885.

On the face of it, aside from their marriage record, William appears to be missing from his birth c.1859 through to the birth of his son Arthur in 1897.

I would like to find William and Elizabeth's family on the 1891 and 1901 census records and I'd like to find William (and/or his father) on the 1881, 1871 and 1861 census records.

Any help, ideas, theories, questions welcomed !

Where was Arthur born?

Paul, are you saying that you have not found the family on any census? If so, how did you find the children?

For INFO

1911 census - household transcription
Person: YOUNG, Arthur
Address: 104 Whitehall Road


YOUNG, William Head Married M 55 1856 Machinist England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, Elizabeth Wife Married
17 years F 48 1863 England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, Edward Son Single M 15 1896 Sawyer Wood England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, Arthur Son M 13 1898 School England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, Beatrice Daughter F 12 1899 School England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, Thomas Son M 7 1904 School England Birmingham VIEW
YOUNG, George Son M 3 1908 England Birmingham VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
18185 Reference:
RG14PN18185 RG78PN1099 RD385 SD1 ED38 SN355

Registration District:
Aston Sub District:
Deritend Enumeration District:
38 Parish:


SIX children born in marriage...ONE has died

Married 17 years in 1911 doesn't tie up with an 1883 marriage; more like 1893, surely?

1861????
YOUNG, William
Address: 6, Holliday Street, Birmingham


census search results all search results redefine current search
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation
Disability Where Born Original
census
image

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YOUNG, William Head Married M 23 1838 Wire Drawer
Wootton
Gloucestershire VIEW
YOUNG, Eliza Wife F 23 1838
Wootton
Gloucestershire VIEW
YOUNG, John Son M 7 1854 Scholar
Wootton
Gloucestershire VIEW
YOUNG, William Son M 4 1857 Scholar
Wootton
Gloucestershire VIEW
YOUNG, Ann Daughter F 1 1860
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
YOUNG, Enock Brother Unmarried M 17 1844 Labourer
Wootton
Gloucestershire VIEW
SEWELL, James Lodger Married M 24 1837 Iron Plate Worker
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
SEWELL, Ann Lodger Widow F 22 1839 Polisher
Grimley
Worcestershire VIEW

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RG number:
RG09 Piece:
2138 Folio:
33 Page:
27

Registration District:
Birmingham Sub District:
2 St Thomas Enumeration District:
24 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Thomas

Civil Parish:
Birmingham Municipal Borough:
Birmingham Address:
6, Holliday Street, Birmingham County:
Warwickshire



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There are 2 trees on Ancestry which give William's parents as Henry(1832-1875 and a Selina Eleanor Dugmore1832-1913
The marriage to Elizabeth Howell is on the record
Perhaps William the father on the marriage certificate was a William Henry ?
There are 3 siblings of William on the tree
Elizabeth b 1858
John b 1871
Harry b 1873
Do they tie in with the info you have ?

I think we need Paul to come back with some more info, eg the children's names and DOBs and POBs. I am still wondering how he knows who William and Elizabeth's children are if he hasn't found them on the census; also, if that is the family in 1911, the year of marriage doesn't tie up.

Paul, can we assume you have a birth certificate for Arthur (or one of his siblings who appear on the 1911) which confirms mother's maiden name?

This family caught my eye:
1901 England Census
Name: Beatrice Howell
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Howell
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Howell
Gender: Female
Where born: B'ham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Handsworth
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: West Bromwich
Sub-registration district: Handsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 259
Piece: 2708
Folio: 122
Page Number: 43
Household Members: Name Age
William Howell 40
Elizabeth Howell 38
Ellen Howell 15
William Howell 13
Harry Howell 11
Florence Howell 9
Frederick Howell 7
Arthur Howell 4 ****
Beatrice Howell 2 ****
Alfred Howell 3

I have found a William with a mother Selina in 1861 and later as Barry has suggested...father was absent on both occasions.

Could this be the middle William in 1911?:
Person: YOUNG, William
Address: 8 Sunny Sode Grange Road Small Heath Birmingham


census search results all search results redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

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YOUNG, William Head Married
3 years M 25 1886 Carter Bham Warwicks England VIEW
YOUNG, Harriet Wife Married F 27 1884 Bham Warwicks England VIEW
YOUNG, William Henry Son M 3 1908 Bham Warwicks England VIEW
YOUNG, Arthur Son M 1 (18 MONTHS) 1910 Bham Warwicks England VIEW
YOUNG, George Frederick Son M 0 (1 MONTH) 1911 Bham Warwicks England VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
18208 Reference:
RG14PN18208 RG78PN1100 RD385 SD2 ED19 SN325

Registration District:
Aston Sub District:
Bordesley Enumeration District:
19 Parish:
Aston

Address:
8 Sunny Sode Grange Road Small Heath Birmingham County:
Warwickshire

This appears to be the one the person with the tree on Ancestry refers to, the other Selina I found was in Stratfordupon Avon and from the 1851 census her absentee husband was neither Henry nor William:

Person: YOUNG, Selena
Address: 3, 10 Court, Essington Street, Birmingham

Cost:
You will be charged 5 credits for a transcript and 5 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.


census search results all search results redefine current search
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation
Disability Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YOUNG, Henery Head Married M 29 1832 Tube Maker
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
YOUNG, Selena Wife F 27 1834
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
YOUNG, David Son M 7 1854 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
YOUNG, Elizabeth Daughter F 3 1858 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW
YOUNG, William Son M 1 1860
Birmingham
Warwickshire VIEW

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RG number:
RG09 Piece:
2130 Folio:
48 Page:
35

Registration District:
Birmingham Sub District:
1 Lady Wood Enumeration District:
14 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Barnabas

Wow ..... I have some reading to do up above !

Here's some additional info.

I have living relatives who provided me with some sibling names and one proven birth certificate from the family - which was Arthur. His certificate gave me parent names and those parent names matched birth certificates for other siblings for whom I obtianed birth certicates. There were address matches too from various certificates.

Birth Certificates I have (all show mother's maiden name as HOWELL) ..........

Arthur Young 15/08/1897 Kings Norton (Staffs) 76 Exeter Rd, Smethwick
Beatrice May Young 24/01/1899 Harborne (Staffs) 76 Exeter Rd, Smethwick
Thomas Henry Young 06/08/1904 Kings Norton (Worcs) 38 Sherbourne Rd, Balsall Heath
George Young 10/04/1907 Aston (Warks) 131 Carlton Rd, Aston

Marriage Certificate of relevance .......

William Young v Harriet Smith 27/10/1907
William shows as 22 years old, "Sawyer", father "William" (Foreman)
Address 131 Carlton Road (see George Young birth cert above). I have very strong living relative support for William being Arthur (b1897)'s brother) and the executor to William's will in 1925 was a witness at Arthur's wedding AND was married to Beatrice May Young !

Living relatives claim there were other children - one claims first child was a "Nellie" and last child was a "Dick" (Richard ?)

I have a newspaper article about Arthur Young from the 1940s in which he states he was one of SIXTEEN children so I am missing many.

My particular interest is through the William Young line as the William on the marriage certificate above is my great grandfather.

There is a William that appears around the right time but he is consistantly a "Tube Drawer", as was his father, and he appears on the 1911 census alone in an institution still as a Tube drawer. My Williams were all Sawyers or Carters, relatively unskilled in other words.

I have also seen and examined the Selena Young line and nothing in that one matches albeit she was quite a character so that's a shame !!!

PS: I believe the "years married" figure on the 1911 census might be a simple miscalculation by ten years by somebody !

PPS: I have long had a suspicion that there is something complex going on here and that either siblings thought they were siblings when they weren't and/or there were two families maybe with different mothers but one father ?

If I'm to believe Arthur's recollection that he was one of 16 then the records from any one family don't seem to tally with such a production rate ...... indeed the 1911 census record I have shows they admit to having six children to the marriage only, one of whom had died and the other five listed. If that is correct then I have the wrong family but then, given the possible inaccurate marriage date, maybe they got that wrong too !!!

Paul, I have checked births for the Howell children I posted in 1901 - I cannot find any births in the Birmingham area for any of them except possibly William and Harry but there are Young births that fit. Also, I cannot find the family in 1891 under either Young or Howell!

Nor can I ..... that's my problem !

I've tried address searches for Sherbourne Road and Exeter Road in 1901: three people with names nowhere near similar in Exeter Road and 38 Sherbourne Road shows as uninhabited. I've also tried searching on the children's forenames, with and without parents' forenames: nil. The nearest is the Howell one above but the occupation is out. All very strange...
Sorry I haven't been any help :-(

Thanks for trying ...... I'd dearly love to know why this is proving so impossible !!!

Hi Paul
Have you tried checking the images for all William Young to see if the age is transcribed correctly. When the enumerator draws those black lines through ages the transcribed often cant read it properly.

I have found a son 40 years older than his father due to this error. Don't put places of birth either or counties because I have seen mistakes with this too Just check them all out to eliminate them

Have you tried using initials only. Its surprising how many dont give their full name or use short names such as Lizzie,Florrie,etc