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I am wondering if William & Elizabeth Howell are related to Elizabeth Young (nee Howell) and were "fostering" the children...

Finding them in 1891 would be great but I can't find them either !!!

Nellie is definitely a variation of Ellen and, less frequently Eleanor. I can't seem to find the Howells of 1901 in 1891 (at least not on FMP). Will try Ancestry.

Seems BMD has come up with the same family in 1901 that I posted. Paul, you could get the birth cert for the Alfred Young below and check the address with the 1901 census:

Births Mar 1901 (>99%)
Young Alfred Birmingham 6d 183

The 1901 census was taken on 31st March, so this birth would tie in with Alfred being 3 months.

Okay - I'm liking the "Howell" family on the 1901 census detailed above.

Elizabeth's name is right - albeit her maiden name, her YOB is right, there are four near perfect matches on kids names and YOBs, there is the missing "Nellie" who living relatives swear was the first born and the location is right and within the broad area they subsequently lived at.

What I don't get is the named occupation of William (Coal Dealer & Greengrocer) which doesn't seem to fit with subsequent unskilled trades (ie: "Sawyer") and why they have used the name Howell ...... what might they have been up to ?

Is this William a different William to the one on the 1911 census and on the 1883 marriage certificate ?

BatMansDaughter ...... I think you might have something there !

A living relative is adamant that the oldest child was a "Nellie" and I'm fairly certain that "Nellie" can be derived from Ellen !

Will look into that one further this evening but thans !

Well I was hoping that maybe they were staying with Grandma Emma but no - and I suspect you will have investigated that anyway. For whatever reason, they really did not want to be found!

Is this Elizabeth in 1871? Father's occupation is given as a labourer

Person: HOWELL, Elizabeth
Address: Asylum Road, Birmingham


census search results 1871 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

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HOWELL, Thomas Head M 44 1827 Gloucestershire VIEW
HOWELL, Emma Wife F 41 1830 Cambridgeshire VIEW
HOWELL, Elizabeth Daughter F 9 1862 Warwickshire VIEW
HOWELL, Amey Daughter F 4 1867 Warwickshire VIEW
HOWELL, Alfred Son M 3 1868 Warwickshire VIEW
BULLOCK, Elizabeth Boarder F 27 1844 Warwickshire VIEW
BULLOCK, Henry Boarder M 2 1869 Warwickshire VIEW

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RG number:
RG10 Piece:
3123 Folio:
131 Page:
3

Registration District:
Birmingham Sub District:
St George Enumeration District:
32 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Birmingham Municipal Borough:
Birmingham Address:
Asylum Road, Birmingham County:
Warwickshire



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Not sure if this has been posted;

1901 England Census
about Beatrice Howell Name: Beatrice Howell
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Howell
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Howell
Gender: Female
Where born: B'ham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Handsworth
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Bromwich
Sub-registration district: Handsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 259
Piece: 2708
Folio: 122
Page Number: 43
Household Members: Name Age
William Howell 40
Elizabeth Howell 38
Ellen Howell 15
William Howell 13
Harry Howell 11
Florence Howell 9
Frederick Howell 7
>>>>>>>>Arthur Howell 4
Beatrice Howell 2
Alfred Howell 3 Months


The ages for father William is about right and the same for son Arthur.

"Have you tried checking the images for all William Young to see if the age is transcribed correctly. When the enumerator draws those black lines through ages the transcribed often cant read it properly."

I have - and I've also tried surnames only, forenames only, initials, etc. If it was just William missing then fair enough but his wife is missing, as are his kids too !

Certificate shows Elizabeth's father as Thomas Howell - Labourer.

what are the details of Elizabeth Howell on the marriage cert i.e father etc

Hi Paul
Have you tried checking the images for all William Young to see if the age is transcribed correctly. When the enumerator draws those black lines through ages the transcribed often cant read it properly.

I have found a son 40 years older than his father due to this error. Don't put places of birth either or counties because I have seen mistakes with this too Just check them all out to eliminate them

Have you tried using initials only. Its surprising how many dont give their full name or use short names such as Lizzie,Florrie,etc

Thanks for trying ...... I'd dearly love to know why this is proving so impossible !!!

I've tried address searches for Sherbourne Road and Exeter Road in 1901: three people with names nowhere near similar in Exeter Road and 38 Sherbourne Road shows as uninhabited. I've also tried searching on the children's forenames, with and without parents' forenames: nil. The nearest is the Howell one above but the occupation is out. All very strange...
Sorry I haven't been any help :-(

Nor can I ..... that's my problem !

Paul, I have checked births for the Howell children I posted in 1901 - I cannot find any births in the Birmingham area for any of them except possibly William and Harry but there are Young births that fit. Also, I cannot find the family in 1891 under either Young or Howell!

PPS: I have long had a suspicion that there is something complex going on here and that either siblings thought they were siblings when they weren't and/or there were two families maybe with different mothers but one father ?

If I'm to believe Arthur's recollection that he was one of 16 then the records from any one family don't seem to tally with such a production rate ...... indeed the 1911 census record I have shows they admit to having six children to the marriage only, one of whom had died and the other five listed. If that is correct then I have the wrong family but then, given the possible inaccurate marriage date, maybe they got that wrong too !!!

PS: I believe the "years married" figure on the 1911 census might be a simple miscalculation by ten years by somebody !

Wow ..... I have some reading to do up above !

Here's some additional info.

I have living relatives who provided me with some sibling names and one proven birth certificate from the family - which was Arthur. His certificate gave me parent names and those parent names matched birth certificates for other siblings for whom I obtianed birth certicates. There were address matches too from various certificates.

Birth Certificates I have (all show mother's maiden name as HOWELL) ..........

Arthur Young 15/08/1897 Kings Norton (Staffs) 76 Exeter Rd, Smethwick
Beatrice May Young 24/01/1899 Harborne (Staffs) 76 Exeter Rd, Smethwick
Thomas Henry Young 06/08/1904 Kings Norton (Worcs) 38 Sherbourne Rd, Balsall Heath
George Young 10/04/1907 Aston (Warks) 131 Carlton Rd, Aston

Marriage Certificate of relevance .......

William Young v Harriet Smith 27/10/1907
William shows as 22 years old, "Sawyer", father "William" (Foreman)
Address 131 Carlton Road (see George Young birth cert above). I have very strong living relative support for William being Arthur (b1897)'s brother) and the executor to William's will in 1925 was a witness at Arthur's wedding AND was married to Beatrice May Young !

Living relatives claim there were other children - one claims first child was a "Nellie" and last child was a "Dick" (Richard ?)

I have a newspaper article about Arthur Young from the 1940s in which he states he was one of SIXTEEN children so I am missing many.

My particular interest is through the William Young line as the William on the marriage certificate above is my great grandfather.

There is a William that appears around the right time but he is consistantly a "Tube Drawer", as was his father, and he appears on the 1911 census alone in an institution still as a Tube drawer. My Williams were all Sawyers or Carters, relatively unskilled in other words.

I have also seen and examined the Selena Young line and nothing in that one matches albeit she was quite a character so that's a shame !!!