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Dear Chrisse

thanks again for the tips

especially about the white space :-)

thank goodness I don't have a bank account to empty :-D

I would be very tempted to get the Hannah McMann 1854 marriage certificate to see who she was !

this is another problem with working on other people's families ... you keep wanting to empty their bank accounts to quench your curiosity :-D


... oh drat, never mind, I think this is them in 1861 in Wolverhampton ...

Peter Welsh 30 born Ireland
Hannah Welsh 29 born Ireland c1832
James Welsh 5
Bridget Welsh 2
Sarah Welsh 6 MO
Michael Welsh 22
Bridget Heggins 28

Thanks chrissie
I had with help from potty contact with graham who had the marriage cert
We pooled our info and both came to the conclusion that hannah mcmahon was born in newry in 1834 parents bridget and Bernard mcmahon. Bridegt and bernard were from county down,. Bernard from newry and probably bridget as well. They came to stafford in the late 1830's with four children .They may have had more older children but we are unaware of them at present. It seems that we have collected all we can from the english end of their descendants but the question still remains who were the forebears of bridget and bernard, but Perhaps we have to await publicationof irish baptisms and marriages before we can go further back.this is the reason I felt this thread really is completed yet I can not say is answered as My original questions remain unanswered.
thanks again fro you interest
I am interested too in looking at this name as it crops up to in the paternal part of my tree and I wondered if there was any connection between the two families in the early 19th century

could Hannah possibly have been already married and thus the need to dissemble ?

Marriages Dec 1854
Flaharty Mary Wolverhampton 6b 791
? McMann Hannah Wolverhampton 6b 791
Timlin Anthony Wolverhampton 6b 791
Welch Peter Wolverhampton 6b 791

Anthony 1821 and Mary Timlin are in Wolverhampton in 1861 with a 3-yr-old child their eldest ...

I don't see a suitable Peter Welch in 1851 or 1861 ... another name that could get confused ... Welsh, Walsh ...

there is no other Hannah Mcm*n in Staffordshire in 1851 ... although there is an Honor McMahan 1823 in Wolverhampton ... but Honora McMann married in Wolverhampton in 1852 ...

( there are a Peter and Hannah Welch in Lancashire in 1871 but they married in Chorley 1853 )


well it is a possibility, only the McMann Welch marriage certificate would tell ... or would the Staffordshire site show something ?

hi, I am just putting a post here to put it in 'my threads' after reading your post on genealogy chat about when to start a new thread :-)

McMann McPerson ... that is something a feminist with a sense of humour might do in our day but it is a strange thought for the mid 1800s ... but if she were looking for an alias for herself it might have occurred to her ... or possibly the registrar just gave up on spelling McMahon ! :-D

it is indeed a coincidence between 'Barnet' McPerson and 'Bernard' McMahon ... we certainly know of other cases where a person using an alias has kept grains of truth like a father's real first name ...

what of Barnet's occupation on the marriage certificate (I may have missed this ) ... Bernard was an ag lab in 1841 so nothing really distinctive there ...


Bernard in 1851 for reference

Name: Bernard McMahon
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Bridget McMahon ( one year older )
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Dovis, Ireland
Civil parish: Stafford St Mary

he is a bricklayer's labourer this time

and it says County Down, not 'Dovis' ...

also Hannah in 1851 ?

ame: Hannah McMann
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Stafford St Mary


when you say

'The only birth ref I need to find is for emily born stourbridge 1q1863'

you mean ... ? the entry is at freebmd

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Births Mar 1863
GRINDEY Emily Stourbridge 6c 189


( one tip for posting ... use the 'enter' key to create some white space between thoughts in your posts ... it makes them very much easier to read )

Have just found John William on the staffsBMD site spelt GRINDY birth 1860 longton mothers maiden name MACMAHON. ref no LGN/029/057.Don't know how I had missed that before. Sarah Ann is also there 1859 GRINDYref LGN/27/073 but in this case Maiden name spelt MACMAHON I think this means the evidence for Hannah being Bernard McMahon's daughter is getting stronger.The only birth ref I need to find is for emily born stourbridge 1q1863

No he hasn't yet given me all the info-I have asked for it. The marriage took place in st peters, stoke which is an anglican church.20th sept 1858 .I know it was st Peters from Staffs Bmd .Graham hasn't yet told me where. The date I hadn't known. I also thought it strange that he knew the date of Barnet's birth though he didn't say where he was born.
I also want to know Barnet's given occupation and whether he was alive at the time of the marriage and also Josephs father and occupation.I have james as jospehs father who died between the censuses of 1891 and 1901,and was a brickmaker.
So joseph an anglican married Hannah a catholic whose child prior to the marriage was baptised in the catholic church in stafford.Their youngest child was baptised also in the catholic church in stafford .

Hi Sue,

Glad the contact worked! Did Graham give you all the info from the marriage cert? I am surprised that Barnet's DOB was on it or did Graham give you that info from another source?

Where did the marriage take place? Was it in a catholic church? What was Barnet's occupation?

Hei potty
It worked Graham has contacted me .
He says the marriage cert says father Barnet Mcperson born 1805. I still think it is an alias. Barnet might be a way of writing a northern Irish accent Bernard, and there are just so few McPersons. If the name was said McMann then a woman might have adopted the mcperson. The baptism of James Bernard shows clearly that it was Jospeh Grindey and Hannah Mcmahon as parents. Also hannahs great niece MaryMcMahon/ Mcmann was known at least by my grandfather, my mother and a great aunt. there is just too much evidence to be able to trust the name on the marriage cert. My big question is why but I think that has a lot to do with social history of the time. I am still no nearer finding the origins of Hannah's parents or why they chose to come to the Uk. Interesting though to say the least
will keep you posted

scarey, just click on my name in any of my postings on this thread and use the box that comes up to PM me.

Potty
yes please I can send you a message with my contact details if you would like me to.That would be really great, and at least one step towards discovering a lttle more
thanks sue

Susan, do you want me to pass on your details to the treeowner on Ancestry?

Am logging off now, but will be back on tomorrow.

Thanks beverley.
I posted a link to this site on the genealogy chat page yesterday.I have contacted "the for further info" and had a message to say he will get back to me.It seems still pretty certain to me that the hannah that married Joseph grindey was hannah mcmahon daughter of Bernard and bridget.There has been no evidence found to suggest otherwise.My info on the mcmahon at present is more up to date than the website for stafford. for example James who married susanna (Johanna) had 6 possibly seven children When Johanna(susanna) died after the birth of their youngest child johanna,James moved to Fenton where his niece was living. This has been a tough nut to crack though am not there yet,after 4years trying.
thanks again sue

http://www.staff.ljmu.ac.uk/socjhers/stafford/families/familyhistory6.html#McMahon

Must be your family.

"McMahon
There were two unrelated McMahon families in 19th century Stafford. The first arrivals were Bernard and Bridget McMahon from Co. Down who were already there in the 1830s. They had at least four children, Bridget, James, Peter and Hannah, but only James, who married Susanna Shyne in 1853, remained in the town. They had five children, but all seem to have left Stafford in the 1870s and they probably emigrated."

There's a contact link for asking for further info about any of the families listed.

Beverley

Susan,

If you PM me your email address I will pass it on to the tree owner and ask him/her to contact you.

I am sure that yesterday the search results showed that there was a picture of a marriage cert, but today that is not showing.

I have tried searching for Joseph in the private family trees and the same tree has a Joseph Grindey b 1836 Staffordshire, and a Sarah Ann b1859 Longton, so looks as if it is the correct family.

Thanks Potty
How would do that? I'm not a mmember of ancestory .I had a few trial five years ago, before I really knew much about family trees. I have not credit card or debit card. could you let me know how I could contact them
thanks
There is a website which details the irish diaspora in stafford and they have the family on that saying that they arrived in the 1830's. James' ,Hannahs older brother married a johanna shine, and I have only in the last few days identified the mary Mcmahon b 1901 that I had been looking for, which makes me pretty certain that hannah mcmahon was hannah mcperson,but her maiden name believed to be mcMann because it was mainly said and not written down. Hannahs youngest son was James Bernard.and bernard had not appeared in the family in any other branch until then.
thanks sue
only now getting used to this posting system. hope I can be of help to others too

There is a private member's tree on Ancestry which has a picture of the marriage cert of a Hannah McPerson to a Joseph. It might be worth contacting the owner to see what other info they have.

Ok I took out the posting asking only about bernard mcmahon and the rest of the family, but still am puzzled as to where I can find more info about them
bernard came from newry as did bridget .they were in stafford by 1841. there seem not to be too many mcmahons in staffordshire at that time.øBut does anyone have any idea where I can find information the newry end. Ie bridgets maiden name ,when they amrried.How many children they had in total.what happened to their children peter and bridget.I know what ahppened with james
thanks sue

just relooked at the 1871 census joseph is with his brother in law edwin finney ,his sister ellen and her family with his four children he is a furnace stock taker and birthplace described as leekfrith.
the death cert detailed longor 1866 seems to be of the longor grindey branch although the age could match.
I wonder if he really was a widow or if the family just broke up

note her youngest son had the second name bernard which hinted to me that bernard mcmahon could be hannahs father