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Can anybody find a Celia Smith who travelled to AUS around 1953 -1956.
She was born 1879 but according to her grandaughter my cousin she lied about her age to get to AUS
Son Stanley went first - he was born 1918 but I also can't find any Stanley Smith travelling to AUS early 1950's
Son Eric and Family travelled 3 Dec 1951 Ship: ASTURIAS under the Assisted Passage Migration Scheme, Port of departure: Southampton Passenger destination port: Sydney, Australia UK address given as 91 Burdett Avenue, Westcliff-on-Sea, Essex - I have found that manifest

Son Stanley was ill so decided to return to UK and died onboard ship 1965 - where would his death be registered.

We are tryng to sort this out but they all moved to Salibury, North Southern Australia and records are limited, Celia died 17 Jun 1967 but the online record doesn't mention parents names as other records from AUS do.

Can anybody help :-D

??


Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: Mrs C SMITH
Date of departure: 27 January 1953
Port of departure: London
Destination port: Adelaide
Destination country: Australia

Date of Birth: 1880 (calculated from age)
Age: 73
Marital Status:
Sex: Female
Occupation: Home Duties
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 6 of 35


UK address - 54 Stephenson Avenue, Tilbury, Essex

Wow that was fast - seems to be her - Tilbury is the key
Thanks so much
Think son Stan was living with her in England but not sure :-D

this looks like him ? I don't have paid access to details

SMITH Stanley 1919 M 1952 London Australia Melbourne

don't think it's him - this one lived at 17 Northfield Street, Dewsbury


Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960

Name: Stanley SMITH
Date of departure: 25 January 1952
Port of departure: London
Destination port: Melbourne
Destination country: Australia

Date of Birth: 1919 (calculated from age)
Age: 33
Marital Status:
Sex: Male
Occupation: Labourer
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 17 of 23

can you specify what you're really looking to find ?

you know they went to Australia so the passenger records will not tell you anything new ?

is it Eric's family in Australia ? or Celia's identity and ancestors ?

Celia's full name will be on a son's birth certificate, her father's name on her marriage certificate ... do you know her name before marriage ?

one of these must be Eric ... ?

SMITH E 1921 M 1951 Southampton Australia Sydney
SMITH E 1915 M 1951 Southampton Australia Sydney

just wondering whether you know a full name and birth year, if it is his family you are looking for that could help find a death notice if there is one at ryersonindex.org for example and a copy of it could have family info in it


oh I see your post now Choccy, oh well, it looked good :-)

... but it could still be him ?

we are even shorter on information than Susanne is !

I have been checking my emails. My family is very very disfuctional.
This particular family in Aus don't know anything about their UK family and mum won't talk about her life. She cut herself off from everybody. Their grandma Celia really suffered in UK & in AUS. It is sad story

Eric is sorted but he died in 1998 Renmark, Southern Australia, Australia. I bought his birth cert for them.His father is know but his reall name is the problem. It is now one of the daughters and her children who are looking. They remember uncle Stan who never married leaving AUS but they are stuck. Believe me it is difficult. They don't know where to look for his death cert.

We were hoping if we could find a ships manifest it would have a UK addres somewhere London or south of England :-D

Do you mean she died 17 July 1967 or is it defo June?

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Name: Celia Smith
Death Date: 17 Jul 1967
Death Place: South Australia
Registration Year: 1967-1970
Registration Place: South Australia
Page Number: 4757
Volume Number: 32A

Do you have any background for Celia, her birth name, birth place, parents, siblings and husband etc?

If she went to Oz in 1956 she would have been about 77 years old?

I am still just not quite clear on what you are looking to find out !

it is wise to make that the question rather than, say, that you are looking for a passenger record ... if what you want is information about the person there may be other or better ways to find it

it is information about Celia before she went to Australia that you would like to find ?

to find roots or family in England ?


you say she was born 1879 ... that death record is for someone born about 1900 ... is the idea that this was the lie, that she understated her age by a lot when she went to Australia ? but the 1953 passenger record is for someone born about 1879 ...


do you know Celia's name before marriage ? was she in fact married ? do you know whether Stanley or Eric had a middle name ? when Eric was born ? can you tell us Eric's wife's name ?

any of these could help identify the births of Eric and Stanley to find Celia's original surname


edit ... you say you have Eric's birth certificate, his father is known but real name is the problem ... ? I don't understand ... but if you have the birth certificate you know Celia's full name ...

if we are to help find information we need to have the information you have ... you have this information but you are not providing it ... ?

you really need to tell us what you would like to find out ... and what you know ... so we can try to help ...

Sorry for not getting back sooner - got stuck with family stuff.

This is not a normal family structure. I have Erics birth cert and the wife. The wifes family is my family and I have all the certs of her family going back generations & photos of her siblings which I have just sent to AUS. Also another person has sent me a photo of her brother his wife and her father.
As I said I found the ships manifest of Eric & his family going to AUS and the dates of birth match with the certs.
The problem is that both his parents put false info on his birth cert
I was trying to work backwards from AUS but it looks like Stan used another family name to enter AUS and Celia was an old lady when she arrived and entered with false declaration papers. I was looking for the adresses on the manifiests.
Also a possible bigamous marrige

The Mrs C Smith adress on the found ships manifest is apparently not correct - this was confimed a few hours ago.

Also th grave ref is wrong - she died in the Lyal McEwan Hospital in Elizabeth which I'm told is the next town over from Salisbury. I've also queried the date they sent to me.

I'll have to leave it for now but the good news is that Erics wife is now intersted in what I sent so is at long last willing to talk. I will get back to you when I get some more info from AUS

I'm going to get Stans birth cert and the last born to see the adresses on the certs

Thanks so much for everybody who has tried to help sort this out.

:-D

Helen

Looks like you found it - another email yesterday says she was cemated and it is thought ashes scattered at sea. Something to do with son Stan dying onboard on his wayback to UK - read my ealier messages about him
The last address they remember was 15 Harnham Road.

Is there any url link for this ref or where can it be found. Doesn't matter if one has to pay for it.

How would one get the death cert. Plans to go to Adelaide but need advise what to look for.

I'm afraid Susanne I still don't understand what it is you are trying to find out ...........

Eric's parents' identity ?

don't know how you know Stanley's year of birth .......
[ deleted info that turned out to be irrelevant since Susanne had exact info about Stanley's and Eric's births, mother's surname, etc, just was not giving it, see top of page 2 ]

you say you are hoping to get Stan's birth certificate, does this mean you have identified his birth or you are trying to identify it ? ... it is very difficult to tell what information you have ...


when you say false info on Eric's birth certificate ... is this possibly a situation of a married woman having a child with another man ? in that case it was required that the child be registered in the mother's husband's surname ... if that is the case the information is not 'false' as such it is what was required by the law ( the presumption of legitimacy ) ... sometimes there was a double registration showing the real father's name ...

but what does it give as Celia's surname before marriage ? if you know that and we don't we can't help find information about Celia if that is what you are looking for

can you tell us what the confirmation that the address on the passenger record is not correct is ? confirmed how ... by whom ... ?

findmypast has deaths at sea, you probably have checked

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/all/deaths

select 'at sea' for region

searching for Stanley Smith born 1919 +/- 2 years died 1955 to 1990

gives one result

SMITH Sidney S At sea "Lord Lloyd" 1951-1955

however since it is the result for both 1918 and 1919 as year of birth it seems it probably does not show a year of birth / age

if he was considered to be Australian at the time of his death it would presumably not appear in the register of English deaths

Can't be a 1919 birth for this one:

Overseas registration event: Death

Name: SMITH, Sidney S
Vessel: Lord Lloyd
Country: At sea
Year: 1951-1955
Page: 19
Age at death: 52

Record source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1903 to 1965)

right ... you have Stanley in your tree as born Fulham 1918 ... why you would not put that in this thread ... ?

the only matching birth record

Name: Stanley Smith
Mother's Maiden Surname: Finch
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1918
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 372

Marriages Dec 1916
Finch Celia Smith Fulham 1a 721
Smith George I Finch Fulham 1a 721

basic information ... is that correct ?

Births Sep 1879 ?
Finch Celia Docking 4b 300

you and several others ( the same as for Stanley ) have Eric as born 1915 Fulham

Births Dec 1915 ?
Smith Eric Finch Hammersmith 1a 543

( a year before the Finch Smith marriage )

there are Eric Smith births in 1915 in Pancras, Shoreditch, Wandsworth, mother Smith ... ?

there is no Celia Finch c1879 in the 1911 census ...

Marriages Dec 1900
Baldock William Wisbech 3b 1315
Brown George Wisbech 3b 1315
Desborough Sarah Jane A Wisbech 3b 1315
? Finch Celia Wisbech 3b 1315


that Celia in 1901

Name: Celia Brown
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Brown
Gender: Female
Where born: Runham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Elm
Town: Elm
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Registration district: Wisbech

George Brown 22
Celia Brown 21


and in 1881

Name: Celia Finch
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George W. Finch
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Finch
Gender: Female
Where born: Rudham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Kings Lynn St Margaret
County/Island: Norfolk
Street Address: 8 Railway Passage
Registration district: King'S Lynn

George W. Finch 30 railway lab
Elizabeth Finch 31
Isabel Finch 12
Arthur Finch 3
Celia Finch 1


this Celia in 1911 answers to born in Rudham, she had apparently partnered with Smith by then

SMITH CELIA F 1881 30 Islington London

I don't have paid access and there are others by the same names so I can't sort them on free search but she may be living with

SMITH GEORGE M 1878 33 Islington London

that is, the George she married in 1916 I would assume

That 1911:

SMITH, George Head Married M 33 1878 Printer Islington London
SMITH, Celia Wife Married 11 years F 30 1881 Rudham
SMITH, Maud Daughter F 9 1902 Cambridge
SMITH, George Son M 1 1910 Seacombe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registration District: Islington
Sub District: Barnsbury
Enumeration District: 1
Parish: Islington

Address: 20 Cloudesley Place Islington London N County: London

Under their names was written boarders which was scratched out. The census return was completed by Mrs Smith.

** No other children born

thank you Marie Celeste :-)

possible other births ( Smith Finch is not a unique surname combination )

Births Jun 1914
SMITH Leonard Finch Islington 1b 551

Births Jun 1920
Smith Lilian M Finch Fulham 1a 787


daughter Maud

Births Sep 1901
Brown Maud Risbridge 4a 898

( edited out info about husband ... I searched for George I Brown birth instead of Smith ...)

I hadn't realised the disussion had continued. My mistake for not checking back on this thread. Now the update and further help needed

A copy of the 1911 census record Celia with Eric Smith plus 2 children Maud born 1902 Cambridge & George born 1910 Seacombe, mentioned above I downloaded and sent to AUS. It seems to be correct according to the address 20 Cloudesley Place, Barnsbury, Islington, London and employment of Eric Smith.

I sent for so many certs to try and sort it out from the info sent to me from AUS. Found several trees on Ancestry and GR that had mixed up some names and linked a family name which I knew was wrong so had to prove it.

Now - Celia Smith was born Celia Finch DOB 20 Jul 1879 - Docking Norfolk
Mother Elizabeth Gibbison father George Finch.

Can't find any marriege for her parents
The death and cemetry ref send by Helen is now confimed as correct.

Son Eric Smith was born 25 Nov 1915 - died 1998 Renmark, Southern Australia, Australia
Son Stanley Smith was born 7 May 1918 - Fulham, London.

The certs for the other children which I hope are correct haven't arrived yet.

The 2 marriage certs for Celia Smith I now have - they seem to be the same person from the description of the father. However they both declare her as a spinster.
Not sure if it was a bigamous marraige

1. To George Brown 4 Oct 1900 - Elm Cambridge
His DOB 13 Aug 1878 Terrington St John Norfolk, England
Parents Wiliam Brown & Maria Thompson
His brother Edward Brown is witness so the line is confirmed

I can't find any death record.

2 To George Isaac Smith 19 Aug 1916 - Fulham London(age 38) father George Isaac Smith deceased war office clerk. The 1911 census says he was born in Isilngton London
Can't find any other information about him

I am also presuming the the first child Maud is the daughter of Brown but he second child George is the child of Smith.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1282415?page=1




Anybody got any ideas. :-D

Have you tried Scotlands People for the marriage of Celia* parents as looking at the census Elizabeth was born in Scotland?

I think her name might be Gibbison according to a tree on Ancestry


Could you just put the key things that you are looking for now as I am getting a bit muddled with your last post. I can read the details on page 1

My tips..................

Add 'Update - see Page 2' to your title

And ask a specific question..........