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Mmmmm.... yes I think you may be right. Especially as she got married the following year. Am going to go to Manchester to see what records I can access. Am also going to send off for the two death certificates (John and Margaret Alexander) to see if they give me any more info. The only query I have is that on the order form for Margaret, where is says "if a married woman, please give details of husband", it says "not applicable" yet her husband was still alive at this point. Very confusing. Just another thought, if John and Margaret died in 1872 and 1873, then their daughter, Ellen would only have been aged around 12. I wonder where she went/who looked after her.

Well, there were homes for unwed mothers - and there were a lot of them in those days.

Sorry, don't mean to cast aspersions on poor Ellen's morals!

To be honest, it could be anything. If those deaths are her parents then she may have no-one to turn to if she was in service and taken ill.

Might be worth researching what the building actually was ....

Aghh............ what do you mean "one of those" homes???????????

I'm not finding a marriage for John and Margaret, either.

Lists of incoming passengers on Ancestry only start from 1878 so we'll not find anything on there.

Mary - I don't think Buffalo Bill ever went to Madras (but I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong!!) The 1871 census original actually gives birthplaces as "East Indies, Madras" - I think that should probably be East India.

I just have a hunch that the different types of Indians are being confused.

I've put a link on the bottom of the death records I found - it's one of the best sites for BMDs.

Normally, I'd say that the mother's maiden name should be obtained from the child's birth certificate. However, I can't find a record for Ellen's birth. Up until around 1874 there wasn't much pressure on parent's to register children's births so there are probably large numbers that we can't find records for.

Thank you so much. Yes this is the correct family, George Phipps being my grandad. Couple of things (sorry I am quite new to this), on Ellen and John's marriage certificate, it shows that John Alexander is a Cook but does not say deceased so I presumed he was still alive at that point (1882). Your dates of death make sense though (apart from this query). Why can I not find John Alexander on a previous census, would this be because he was possibly still in India? Could it be that he came over here, married, had one child, and died in quite a short space of time hence not being able to find him on any other cencus. Because he was born in India, will I not be able to carry on his search? Thank you for the info on the hospital/workhouse, have spent ages looking for info on this, most of the workhouses were large but this one was only small so would make sense if it was a hospital. Can I ask where you got the deaths from? Any idea how/where I would be able to find Margaret Alexanders maiden name? Also would I be able to find out when John Alexander came over here? (The other theory in the family was that his family were involved with Buffalo Bill.) Sorry to keep asking questions, you have been so helpful, things are starting to fall into place after all this time. Thank you.

Oh Potty - I missed that. Do you think it might be one of "those" homes?

To add to MarieCeleste's post re the 1881, on the image the matrons are all "Matron of Home for W??", the last word could be women (all the inmates are women). "Hospital" has been written next to it in a different hand.

This could well be the death of Ellen's father:

Deaths Dec 1873
Alexander John 45 Manchester 8d 200

and possibly her mother:

Deaths Jun 1872
ALEXANDER Margaret 29 Manchester 8d 180

(These are from FreeBMD - http://www.freebmd.org.uk )

As regards Ellen being in the workhouse in 1881, it may have been a hospital (doesn't say workhouse on the record)?

ANDERSON, Margt Matron Head Single F 35 1846 Matron (Hospital) Scotland
WILLIAMS, Elizth Matron Widow F 40 1841 Matron (Hospital) Liverpool Lancashire VIEW
WATTS, Louisa Matron Single F 32 1849 Matron (Hospital) London, London
Middlesex

ALEXANDER, Ellen Inmate Single F 20 1861 Servant Liverpool Lancashire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Note the heads are hospital matrons - haven't listed all the other inmates)

Registration District: Salford
Civil Parish: Broughton

Address: 300, Gt Cheetham St, Broughton County: Lancashire

Ellen is also stated as being from Manchester on the 1901, but 1891 does say Liverpool:

PHIPPS, John Head Married M 30 1861 Circular Sawyer Wood Manchester
PHIPPS, Ellen Wife Married F 30 1861 Liverpool **
PHIPPS, Rose Daughter F 7 1884 Scholar Manchester
PHIPPS, Arthur Son M 5 1886 Scholar Manchester
PHIPPS, Ellen Daughter F 2 1889 Manchester
PHIPPS, Margaret Daughter F 0 (7M) 1891 Manchester
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District: Manchester
Civil Parish: Manchester
Municipal Borough: Manchester

Address: 154, Harrowby Street, Manchester County: Lancashire

Mary, let's start from known facts and work back. Is this your family in 1911?

PHIPPS, John Head Married M 50 1861 Wood Sawyer Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, Ellen Wife Married 28 years F 50 1861 Housekeeper Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, Ellen Daughter Single F 22 1889 Cotton Ringspinner Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, Margaret Daughter Single F 20 1891 Cotton Ringspinner Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, John Son Single M 15 1896 Assistant In Rope Walk Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, Grace Daughter F 13 1898 School Lancs Manchester
PHIPPS, Maud Daughter F 11 1900 School Lancs Salford
PHIPPS, George Son M 9 1902 School Lancs Salford
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Registration District: Salford
Sub District: Regent Road
Enumeration District: 8
Parish: Salford

Address: 24 New Cambridge St Salford County: Lancashire

(Ellen had borne 9 children, 1 had died)

** If it IS the right family then Ellen's birthplace is Manchester and not Liverpool as in that 1871.

Hi Mary, we'll certainly keep looking for further info.

It's oh so dangerous when we start following up family stories - a huge pinch of salt has to be taken.

If John was a "red indian" (aka Native American) then he would not be from Madras, as per the 1871 census.

Thank you so much for your help. I had most of the info above but cannot move on from there. I have since relooked at all the info I have got. I know from my mum's family that there was a Red Indian in the family (so presume this was either John or his parents). John's occupation on John and Ellen's marriage certificate was a Cook. A family member told me he was a ship's cook and so with that information and the info off the Passenger Lists I added two and two together and came up with ten!! I have relooked and cannot find any evidence that John was a ship's cook, so may have been trying to trace something that was never there.

I have confirmed John is on the 1871 census with his wife Margaret and daughter Ellen. I cannot find Margaret or John (don't know her maiden name yet) on any other cencus or death or marriage records etc. I can find the daughter Ellen on the 1881 census when she was in the workhouse! The year after that she got married to John. Why would she be in the workhouse? I am sorry I led you up the wrong path, not sure if you will be able to help me any further. Many thanks.

This one has a John Alexander travelling with parents Thomas and Ann.
Thomas and John are labourers. Siblings ?Smyth, Robert, Thomas and a 4 year old daughter name difficult to see.

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about John Alexander Name: John Alexander
Arrival Date: 9 Mar 1847
Birth Year: abt 1828
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Huguenot
Search Ship Database: Search the Huguenot in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

Vera

Little info on original to help confirm it's your John Down as a Labourer.

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about John Alexander Name: John Alexander
Arrival Date: 13 Jun 1853
Birth Year: abt 1828
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: British (English)
Place of Origin: Great Britain
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York
Port Arrival State: New York
Port Arrival Country: United States
Ship Name: City of Washington
Search Ship Database: Search the City of Washington in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

Vera

Hi Mary - pleased we got there in the end :-)

The occupation is off the original image of the 1871 census.

Did you get Ellen's father's name from the certificate of her marriage to John Phipps? What was John's occupation on her marriage certificate?

Where did you get the name of the ship he was a cook on?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to work out where to go next!

Thank you so much for that info - where did you get that info from?I have never seen him anywhere as a Hawker! I am connected in that my Grandad, George Phipps was the son of Ellen and John Phipps. Ellen's maiden name was Alexander, her dad was John Alexander.

Sorry, the two ladies were born in Liverpool on the 1871 census not living there.

Whoops sorry, he was born 1828.

The only Indian record I can see is for army officers retired in 1855?

How are you connected to him? How did you come across him in the 1871?