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I now have a death cert for Charles Edwin Marsh, no sign of wife or daughters registered by his niece. Going back to The Stage archives they used other names as performers he was Charlie Orme and Selina was also Elsie French and Connie Hicks.

This is a note I had from a Liscombe researcher some time ago on the subject of Nan/Ann Liscombe champion clog dancer.

"The Liscombe family came from Devon, John Liscombe (Fanny's father) was a Coast Guard and moved to South Shields before 1851, they started the Liscombe family in S/S.

His son John was the father of Nan b1880 and her brother William R b1879. John was a clogger and a clog teacher and a publican. "

I had always assumed that the connection with the Liscombes was through Ellen but it is onviously possible that the family of James French the mariner could have been involved. I'm on my lunch at work at the moment so I will have a proper look when i get home. Thanks again. Jean

1901 D 18 > 21 saltwell Lane South Sheilds
thomas Collins 1827 a tailor born ireland
Annie french Grandaughter 1885 South Sheilds.

1901 D19 > 27 48 Thames street.
Elizabeth Liscombe married born glasgow 1854 she was Eliza Pengelley married 12/11/1870.
William 1879 married
Ethel 1888.

1891 9Thames Street Borough Arms.
John Liscombe pub manager born Tyneside 1851.HIs parents were John Liscombe born beer Devon a Marriner and Elizabeth Howe born Torpoint Cornwall @ 1820.
Elizabeth A 1854.

John Liscombe 1871 in 1901 /11 lived with isabella English 1874.
In 1911 as man and wife,but they didn't marry until 1920.
Elizabeth A Liscome his wife died 1920.
They had 16 children 12 died,info same on 1911 census according to Eliza's census returns and John's

1911 John Liscombe a shipwright.
Lord Clyde inn Cuthbert Street South Sheilds.

1911 1 Room 19 North Street S Sheilds.
Elizabeth ALiscombe 57 plain sewing
Doris Alfreda Allen adopted child age 8

Could these be the Liscombes connected to your French family as they were on Thames Street as was James and Jane French!!

Maryb.

Hi Vera

Yes that's them, I did consider that Ellen French may be Ellen Ramsey/French but the ages don't match with the 1911 census age. There are a couple of possible marriages for Ellen born 1879.

Jean

Jean I'm getting a bit confused with this Ramsey name and James French as the father of the children. Is this Ellen and Selina with their father James French dob 1853, Seamn, b Liverpool?

1891 England Census
about Ellen French Name: Ellen French
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James French
Mother's Name: Jane French
Gender: Female
Where born: South Shields, Durham, England

Civil parish: Westoe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: South Shields
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: South Shields
Sub-registration district: Westoe
ED, institution, or vessel: 12

Piece: 4154
Folio: 114
Page Number: 30
Household Members: Name Age
James French 38
Jane French 34
Walter French 14
Ellen French 12
Sarah J French 9
Septimus French 7
Annie French 5
Selma French 1

Vera

Hi Vera

I was looking at the Sandfords too I thought the Elizabeth looked as though it may also be the Clara nothing is straightforward with these people !!

Thanks

Jean

Jean
Just a note of caution on the 1911 census for Christina Jane Marsh. Charles E Marsh married a Christina Jane Smith. Christina is said to be the daughter of Clara Sandiford. Could be Clara married twice or had Christina Jane before marriage. I think Clara is also known as Elizabeth Sandiford so will just try to tie up the loose end.

Vera

I will do! They are an interesting lot on my mums side. My Dad's family were mostly farmers who didn't move around much though I do have a clarinet playing great grandfather who broke a wrist when he jumped off the top of a barn hoping his home made leather wings would enable him to fly !!

Thanks again

Jean

Jean - I'm guessing it was a rooming house. Who knows whether her family knew or not.

What an interesting (but frustrating ! ) bunch they are.

Do keep us posted on what you may find.

Hi Vera
That looks as though it is his family my Marsh contact spoke of two daughters being abandoned with the wife so it fits. Perhaps she was his partner in his act before Selina/Connie took over ! I found the two girls in the boarding house quite sad ! I will have to go back to the stage archive with all these new names and try to find Charles in his previous act. Whitty and Wyse seem to have appeared from about 1910.

Thanks so so much to everyone who has helped on this.

Jean

Hi MarieCeleste

I had never looked at who lived there but that name rings no bells. I just checked to see if it was one of those addresses they used to disguise a workhouse birth.

Hi Mary, I have nothing on Ellen Ramsey prior to her appearing on my Grandfather's birth certificate, and have never found a death record for her under Ramsey or French nor have I found anything which looks like a second marriage for her. The names Ellen and Ivy Ramsey were in a list of performers using mailboxes at the stage newspaper in 1904. Ivy appeared as an actress in a number of shows for quite a while but no further sign of Ellen. I have always wondered if that was her real name.
She called herself French in the 1911 census but her status looks more like spinster.
My grandfathers military records are under WW1 Pension Records

Name: James French
Document Year: 1919
Regimental Number: 597010
Regiment Name: Labour Corps
Number of images: 9

The story in the family was that my GF was looked after by a well off couple who may or may not have been related to Ellen who had a pub in Sunderland. They wanted to take him to America but Ellen took him back and they went without him. My Mum used to tell us that we were related to Nan Liscombe who was champion clog dancer of all England and went on to go to America and taught Fred Astaire to dance. I have found lots of references to Ann Liscombe who was a champion clog dancer and who had relatives who had a pub in Sunderland. She did go the America and ran a dance school in Hollywood and taught steps to Fred Astaire and to Gene Kelly. The plot thickens further because the second son that Ellen had in 1910 was named Norman Liscombe French. I have no solid link to the Liscombes other than they were a family of music hall artists around the turn of the century.

1901 Chorlton upon medlock Lancashire D23 . 2 Boarding Hosue
Alice Marsh 1895
Ada Marsh born South Shields 1897 Boarders.

No mum with them.

Maryb.

According to North Tyneside bmd Charles Edwin married Christina Jane Smith. 1911 Christina married with family occupation musical artist. EDIT Alice and Ada were grandchildren. Christina had been married for 17yrs in 1911.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Charles Edwin Marsh Name: Charles Edwin Marsh
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1894
Registration district: Tynemouth
Inferred County: Northumberland
Volume Number: 10b
Page Number: 348 (click to see others on page)

1911 England Census
about Christina Marsh Name: Christina Marsh
[Christina Sandford]
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Newcastle-on-tyne, Northumberland, England
Civil parish: South Shields
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: 139 Dale Street South Shields
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Musie Hall Artist
Registration district: South Shields
Registration District Number: 556
Sub-registration district: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 30279
Household Members: Name Age
Clara Sandford 53
Christina Marsh 33
Gilbert Sandford 17
Alice Marsh 16
Ada Marsh 14
George Macintosh 30
Christina Macintosh 4
Henry Crowther 26
Elizabeth Crowther 26
John Crowther 10

Vera

Jean, I've noticed on the birth certificate for James b 1898 that the address is given as 24 Villa Place, Newcastle.

In both the 1891 and the 1901 census the family that lives there is called Goundry. I'm wondering that if Ellen gave that address in 1898 she may have had a connection to the family - does the name ring any bells with you?

Having looked at earlier and later census it looks like Mrs Goundry took in boarders, so perhaps Ellen rented a room.

Hi jean can you tell me were to find info on Ivy and Ellen Ramsey,I can't find either of them.
If they were on the stage did they have stage names.
Also I can't find James Fench's military record with numbers you gave on thread dated 8/8/2009

Do you have date of death for Ellen French nee Ramsey.
She must have had some help if she had a child at 15 and also some income going by the photo of James on your tree.

Maryb

I think the 1886 date is part of the red herring of the story of Miriam White. it makes more sense that he married between 1891 when he was single with his family and 1901 when he is registered in 1901 census as married. I will have to look for a marriage which leaves the wife alone in 1901. The problem is I dont know when he ditched the paperhanging and went on the road with his comedy act he may not have married in Durham.
Jean

This is the FreeBMD entry for the 1886 marriage - all names present.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEELS Robert Durham 10a 389
MARSH Charles Durham 10a 389
Rippon Margaret Durham 10a 389
White Miriam Durham 10a 389

Oh my goodness ! that is Charles in 1901 thank you so much Mary. I will have to go back to The stage archive to try to find his stage name before he became Harry Whitty.
That is him with his family in 1901.
Would you like to look for my grandfather and his mother in 1901 ? you are obviously better at this than me !!

That is him Vera The confusion on the marriage stems from a Marsh descendant telling me he married Miriam White when very young, and that he left her. I will look again for a different abandoned wife.

Thanks again.
Jean

Charles E Marsh is with mum 1891 a paper hanger and decorater and Single!!

1901 Gloucester St Nicholas D4 > 2
Charles E Maish (Marsh)1870 Deanscombe Cornwall a Visitor Married Comedy Act.

Maryb