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Danny

You sent the cert scans to me - unsolicited - and I replied with my thoughts

As GR's system is not functioning correctly (not unusual) I can't view my sent messages to ascertain whether you have read my message.

I would appreciate knowing - either on here, or via PM

is that not the birth certificate you already have?

it is definitely 808 as transcribed in freebmd

What do you think of

Name: Mary Graham
Date of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1884
Registration district: Chorlton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: I think 808 (not clear)

This could be her also Ann I think I think I am gonna have to order a couple of certs.

Danny

Thanks a million Ann

Danny

I wonder if it is the wrong birth certificate (the one in Chorlton). DoB is 15th Sept. I know it is only a minor detail but the marriage was 5th Sept so Mary would only have been 18. People did give the wrong ages and I know that birthday was only 10 days away but with husband only 18 I would have guessed she would have given her true age as 18 so as not to appear older. This is only a gut feeling though.

There is also this birth which would fit with the age of 19 on the marriage and a census calculated birth year of 1884

Births Dec 1883 (>99%)
GRAHAM Mary Manchester 8d 235

Hi All

I have a couple of certs on this subject that I have scanned

Please let me know if you would like to take a look.

Thank you all again

Danny

Related thread -

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1288138

Thanks very much for all the replys guys here is exactly what I have:

My Mum - Denise Kirkham

Her Dad - Richard Kirkham b. Feb 1912 - d. Feb 2003

His Mum and Dad were George Kirkham & Mary Graham
Married fifth Sept 1903 George aged 18 Mary 19
Marys Dad listed as Richard Graham on marraige cert deceased at the time of marraige previous occ had been a cotton operative.
Marys Address 6 Burton Street, Chorlton Upon Medlock.

Witnessses looks like S Graham & W Kirkham

@ St Augustines Catholic Church Manchester

Now onto what I think is Marys Birth Cert which I also have ( Judeged mainly by the ages on Marraige cert and census info.

This is where I get confused:

Birth cert says Born 15th sept 1884 Mary (girl) under mothers maiden name etc it says Mary Jane Graham - Domestic Servant and no father is listed. From what I see above Mary Jane is listed in the 1871 census as Richard & Mary Anns Daughter? Confused!

All this stuff above about Richard has blown me away but I guess I need to find out what he is to me first 3 or 2 times Great Grandfather?

All the help so far has been fantastic and if anyone else can help please let me know.

Kind reagrds Danny.

just had to share this one

I was trawling through looking for a possible baptism for Mary and found several baptisms for children with the surname 'strong ith arm'

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12653-33222-25?cc=1788853&wc=10932047

on this mariage Richard did not sign the registsre but 'made his mark'

on the 1876 he signed his name (in clear handwriting)

unfortunately the age for both is just given as 'above'

This looks like them on 1851?

1851 England Census
about Richd Graham Name: Richd Graham
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Bridgt Graham
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Johns
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 31 Back Queen St.


Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 1r
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 23
Piece: 2227
Folio: 493
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Richd Graham 22 weaver.
Bridgt Graham 21
Jane Graham 7 - I think image says 1 !!! - Could this be Mary Jane from 1871 ?


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2227; Folio: 493; Page: 19; .


Perhaps someone could tell me - did I once read that Bridget is the Isish equivalent of Mary ??

Dea x

Given the age gap between the children in the 1871, perhaps he was married three times, but in 1861 he is shown as unmarried. (Could somebody else check the image, to make sure I have not mis-read it?)

Finally found Richard in 1861 - he is down as unmarried but the girls are shown as his daughters:

1861 England Census
about M J Graham
Name: M J Graham
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: R Graham
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 237
Piece: 2942
Folio: 66
Page Number: 46
Household Members: Name Age
R Graham 31
M J Graham 11
E Graham 8

Strangely, this looks like it could be Richard,s first marriage but not to a 'Mary Ann' ??

His father's name and occupation also fit?

Marriage: 4 Jun 1848 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Richard Graham - (X), above Piecer Bachelor of Ardwick
Bea McNualty - (X), above Piecer Spinster of Ardwick
Groom's Father: Samuel Graham, Book keeper
Bride's Father: Andrew McNualty, Labourer
Witness: Thomas Hazlehurst; Ellen McNualty, (X)
Married by Banns by: J. P. Pitcairn (Curate)
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1863, Page 69, Entry 138
Source: LDS Film 2148094

Dea x

ages vary rather a lot from that 1881 census!

Richard has ages 12 yrs since the marriage in 1876 and Mary Ann 10yrs

Thanks Ann!

Maureen

the link to the marriage certificate of the above marriage

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12649-48964-16?cc=1788853&wc=10932222

Richard was a spinner age 40 & a widower, father Samuel Graham, book keeper

Mary Ann was age 30 and a spinster

Seems likely,doesn't it?

Just wish we knew who the daughter was supposed to have married!

Maureen

I wondered that too, Maureen. The 1876 marriage would tie in with the birth of Thomas in 1877 and explain the age gap between him and Elizabeth.

Just wondering if Richard married 2 Mary Anns? Her age seems to change a lot.

There's this one:
Marriages Sep 1876
GRAHAM Richard Chorlton 8c 811
HINDLE Mary Ann Chorlton 8c 811

Maureen