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Many thanks - it s all starting to make sense.
The research is so interesting but I am finding it very easy to get lost.
I am most grateful for all the help given to me.
Very best wishes
Ann

PM rec'd.

"Thank you for your replies.
I am still at a loss to know where to go next but will persevere."

Reply sent

"I don't think that there is anywhere to follow on regarding Horace. It looks like he died childless in WW1. There is no evidence to show that your Horace married Elsie Riddiford. (Of course you could buy the marriage certificate to confirm this). You are rather unlucky that 2 Horace Frederick Martins were born within a few months of one another.. The 1891 census posted shows that the "other" Horace was the son of Harry and Eliza Martin. So he wasn't the one that died in WW1. He was the one that died in 1975 (note the different birthdate for him and your Horace)"


So to summarise the two "Horace F Martins"

YOUR HORACE

Births Mar 1889 Martin Horace Frederick Poplar 1c 668

Name: Horace Frederick Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 24 Feb.1889 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism Date: 16 May 1889
Father's Name: Edwin Andrew Martin (Under Guard)
Mother's Name: Jemima Amelia Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bromley St Leonard St Mary
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: Bromley

Name: Horace Frederick Martin
Birth Year: abt 1889
Age: 26
Marriage or Bann Date: 14 Feb 1915
Parish: Pulham
Father's Name: Edwin Andan Martin
Spouse's Name: Adelaide Ursula Gartell
Spouse's Father's Name: William Gartell

MARTIN, HORACE FREDERICK
Rank:Private
Service No:12290
Date of Death:31/07/1915
Age:26
Regiment/Service:Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry
"C" Coy. 6th Bn.
Panel ReferencePanel 20.
MemorialYPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Edwin and Mary Martin; husband of Adelaide Ursula Newman (formerly Martin), of School House, Pulham, Dorchester

His wife's birth

Births Jun 1886 Gartell Adelaide Ursula Dorchester 5a 352


Her re-marriage

Marriages Jun 1919
Martin Adelaide M Newman Dorchester 5a 1063
Newman William J Martin Dorchester 5a 1063

Her death

Name: Adelaide U Newman
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1959
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Weymouth
Inferred County: Dorset
Volume: 7c
Page: 772




THE OTHER HORACE

His birth

Births Sep 1889 MARTIN Horace Frederic Wangford 4a 879


His marriage

Marriages Jun 1920
Martin Horace F Riddiford Lewisham 1d 2561
Riddiford Elsie G Martin Lewisham 1d 2561


His Death

Name: Horace Frederick Martin
Birth Date: 19 Aug 1889
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1975
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Reading & Wokingham
Inferred County: Berkshire
Volume: 19
Page: 0189

Births Jun 1922 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Douglas H Riddiford Lewisham 1d 2007

Two messages received

Thank you for your reply.
I don't think Horace married twice, I did have the wrong wife at first, but now I am almost certain he married Elsie in 1920.
It is from here that I am lost.

Please can you tell me why you think he didn't marry Elsie?
I am fairly new to this and am puzzled as to why after researching dates, names,places this is totally incorrect.
Was Horace killed in the Great War after all which is why he was never talked about?


I think the information posted shows he did not marry Elsie but the only way to prove it would be to get the 1920 marriage cert and see who he names as his father and any possible witnesses that might be related.

1950 42 Rowland Grove, Horace, Elsie, Douglas and Doris Martin

1961 Horace still living at 42 Rowland Grove with an Annie Martin and Elsie G

That would match with the only possble birth showing for that couple

In 1948 there is a Horace F, Elsie G and Douglas Martin living at 42 Rowland Grove, Lewisham

Marriages Jun 1920
Martin Horace F Riddiford Lewisham 1d 2561

Here's the other Horace Frederick with his parents, Harry and Eliza. Certainly looks like he is the one who died in 1975 and probably the one who married Elsie?

1891

Name: Horace Fredrick Martin
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Harry Martin
Mother's Name: Eliza Martin
Gender: Male
Where born: Beccles, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Bungay
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wangford
Sub-registration district: Bungay
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1487
Folio: 110
Page Number: 9
Household Members: Name Age
Harry Martin 37
Eliza Martin 35
Harry James Martin 9
Mary Nellie Martin 2
Horace Fredrick Martin 1
Fredrick Chambers 19
Bessie Phillis Gouneys 23
Maria Anne Baldwin 22
Minnie Tillott 18
John William Rodwell 23

Certainly need some feedback especially about the marriage cert as at the moment it looks like he did not marry Elsie

Yes, I do think that is what has happened Glitterbaby. Further proof, if we needed it, that it is essential to work from facts and not possibilities if you wish to build an accurate tree.

Births Dec 1893 Riddiford Elsie Gertrude Lewisham 1d 1166a

???

Name: Elsie G Martin
Birth Date: abt 1894
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1964
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Lewisham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 97

Shame the 1920 marriage is not on London Marriages on Ancestry to check it out

I presume the poster has gone by location for a possible marriage and not got the cert

Births Jun 1886 Gartell Adelaide Ursula Dorchester 5a 352


Marriages Jun 1919
Martin Adelaide M Newman Dorchester 5a 1063
Newman William J Martin Dorchester 5a 1063


Name: Adelaide U Newman
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1959
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Weymouth
Inferred County: Dorset
Volume: 7c
Page: 772

This is Your Horace's birth reg.

Births Mar 1889 Martin Horace Frederick Poplar 1c 668


I think that the one who died in 1975 may this man.

Births Sep 1889 MARTIN Horace Frederic Wangford 4a 879


So as Glitterbaby has asked to you have the marriage certificate for the man that you think is your Horace please?

Name: Annie Elizabeth Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 31 Oct 1885
Baptism Date: 3 Jan 1886
Father's Name: Edwin Andrew Martin (Railwat Guard)
Mother's Name: Jemima Mary Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St John
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Registers
Address: 46 Morville Street, Bow

Do you actually have the 1920 marriage cert ?

1891
Name: Edwin A Martin
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jemima M Martin
Gender: Male
Where born: Donnington, Shropshire, England
Civil parish: Bromley St Leonard
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:5 Cross Street

Occupation:Railway ticket collector

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 319
Folio: 27
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Edwin A Martin 36
Jemima M Martin 35
Horace F Martin 2
Emily V Martin 9

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 319; Folio: 27; Page: 1; GSU roll: 6095429.

are you sure he was still alive in 1920? or this just a coincidence ?


???

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

Name: Horace Frederick Martin
Birth Place: Bow, London
Residence: Poplar London
Death Date: 31 Jul 1915
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: St. Paul's Churchyard, London
Rank: Private
Regiment: Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry
Battalion: 6th Battalion
Number: 12290
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre




http://www.cwgc.org


MARTIN, HORACE FREDERICK
Rank:Private
Service No:12290
Date of Death:31/07/1915
Age:26
Regiment/Service:Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry
"C" Coy. 6th Bn.
Panel ReferencePanel 20.
MemorialYPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Edwin and Mary Martin; husband of Adelaide Ursula Newman (formerly Martin), of School House, Pulham, Dorchester