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I have conflicting information on Edward Pugh's Death & Marriage Certs. Marriage Cert: 27th Nov 1892 - Parish: Newchapel - County: Staffordshire - age: 33 - Bachelor - Stoker - Resd: Whitehills - Father: Edward Pugh Gasfitter. He married Emma Daniels - age:32 - Spinster - Resd: Whitehills - Father John Daniels Carver.
The Death Cert. 3rd August 1927 - at Diamantina Hospital Brisbane Queensland Aust. - Aga: 83 - Born: Malwon Hills, Worcestershire, England - Father: Edward Pugh Labourer - Mother: Emma Edith - Marriage: Malwon Hills, Worcestershire 25 years Emma Daniels - Children: Edith 47 years - Edward 45 years.

This is conflicting information and I can't find any Births that agree with these Certs. Can anyone help me?

Marilyn

Hi Marilyn, welcome to the boards.

Could you be specific about which parts conflict?

If it's the age and marriage then that's not unusual! The information given on a death certificate is only as good as the informant's knowledge.

EDIT: Do apologise for not correctly calculating the anomalies, as per Jonesey's comments below (he's always right ;-) )

The marriage was definitely in Staffordshire:


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Marriages Dec 1892 (>99%)
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>>>>>Daniels Emma Wolstanton 6b 209
Hall Ellen Maria Wolstanton 6b 209
LLOYD James Wolstanton 6b 209
>>>>>Pugh Edward Wolstanton 6b 209


Incidentally "Malwon Hills" must surely be Malvern Hills which are in Worcestershire

I would have thought it rather unusual for the age to be so far out unless it has been misrecorded or mistranscribed.

If aged 33 in 1892 then birth would be about 1859.

If aged 83 in 1927 then birth would be about 1844

There are several possible births for Edward Pugh between 1844 and 1859 in both Staffordshire and Worcestershire.

Marilyn,

If you have a copy of the marriage certificate who are the witnesses?

Also which came first to you, the death certificate or the marriage certificate?

To which of the possibly 2 Edward Pugh's are you connected, the one who married or the one who died in Australia? If the latter have you a record of when he/they came to Australia?

What is this reference you mention, ""Children: Edith 47 years - Edward 45 years."? If related to the death record in 1927 then both of the children mentioned would have been before the 1892 marriage took place.

Marilyn,

Have you found either Edward or Emma in any UK census?

Could this be the family emigrating?

Date of departure: 2 July 1897
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Brisbane, Australia
Passenger destination: Brisbane, Australia

Mr PUGH
Mrs PUGH
Alice PUGH
Edith PUGH
Edward Pugh

Nice to get so many replies so promptly.

MarieCeleste the certificates make a hugh difference in what his age would have been.

Adeline yes the marriage is definately in the County of Stafford and in the Registration istrict of Wolstanton I have a copy of the Marriage Certificate. And yes I agree Malwon Hills would more than likely be Malvern Hills in Worcestershire. I have seen the births that you refer to but I just can't find any information to tie my Edward Pugh to one of them.

Jonesey it is a big difference in age I agree and that is what is making it difficult for me to decide which is correct and as I said I have a copy of both the Marriage and Death Certificates. The witnesses on the Marriage Cert. are Henry Rawlinson and The mark X of Selina Rawlinson.
The one that died in Aust.is definately my Great Grandfather. From what I can see they departed 2nd July 1897 (looks more like February to me ) this was on findmypast.co.uk and on another site it said they arrived 14th April 1897 (work that one out talk about time travel) on he Duke of Buckingham the passenger list referred to them as Mr Pugh, Mrs Pugh, Alice Pugh, Edith Pugh and Edward Pugh. Alice was not really a Pugh from what I can gather she was apparently born Alice Brown to Emma Daniels before Edward Pugh came along. I cannot find any record of Alice here in Aust. or that she returned to UK. Edith and Edward were listed as children on the Death Cert. I have a copy of both Birth Cert. Edith 11th Dec 1882 1 Peel Street Kidsgrove and Edward 20 March 1885 School Lane, Kidsgrove.

Thankyou for your help.

Adeline I can't be sure if the Edward's I have found on the census are the same Edward, and if as the Death Cert. says his mother is Emma Edith I can't find any Edward with that mother.

Could this 1881 be Emma Daniels with her family?

DANIELS, John Head Married M 43 1838 Cabinet Maker London, Middlesex
DANIELS, Emma Wife Married F 44 1837 London, Middlesex
DANIELS, Emma Junr Daughter Single F 21 1860 French Polisher London, Middlesex
DANIELS, Louisa Daughter SingleF 13 1868 Scholar Birmingham Warwickshire
DANIELS, Thomas Son Single M 8 1873 Scholar Birmingham Aston Warwickshire
DANIELS, Henry Son Single M 3 1878 Sutton Coldfield Warwickshire
BROWN, Alice Grand Daughter Single F 2 1879 Erdington Warwickshire

Piece: 2602 Folio: 45 Page: 8 Registration District: 8
Civil Parish: Cradley

Address: Malvern Hill, Cradley County: Herefordshire

If the 'children' were born in 1882 and 1885, an 1892 marriage seems unlikely, to say the least, unless one of the parents had been married before, and they were waiting for a death

What are the exact details for the parents on the birth certs?

Are you 100% certain that the marriage is that of the man who died in 1927?

The mother's name on the death cert is only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant

PUGH Adult M 1897 London Australia Brisbane VIEW VIEW
PUGH Adult F 1897 London Australia Brisbane VIEW VIEW
PUGH Alice Adult F 1897 London Australia Brisbane VIEW VIEW
PUGH Edith Adult F 1897 London Australia Brisbane VIEW VIEW
PUGH Edward Adult M 1897 London Australia Brisbane VIEW VIEW

"The Death Cert. 3rd August 1927 - at Diamantina Hospital Brisbane Queensland Aust. - Aga: 83 - Born: Malwon Hills, Worcestershire, England - Father: Edward Pugh Labourer - Mother: Emma Edith - Marriage: Malwon Hills, Worcestershire 25 years** Emma Daniels - Children: Edith 47 years - Edward 45 years."

**'Marriage 25 years' - surely, if it's the one you refer to, it's 35 years.

So, how much of the other info can be relied upon?

There is this death:

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985

Name: Emma Pugh
Death Date: 23 Sep 1909
Death Place: Queensland
Father's Name: John Daniels
Mother's Name: Emma Williams
Registration Year: 1909
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration number: B011548
Page Number: 21337

(That ties with the 1881 I posted above)

On the death for Edward it said married 25 years so if Emma died before him then would that not mean the duration of the marriage, not how long since it took place? If the children believed that Edward and Emma had married before their birth then they may have assumed the approximate marriage years based on Emma's death. (Perhaps they didn't want people to know they'd been born out of wedlock.)

Like Reggie says, I'd take info on the certs with a pinch of salt. For example, Edward may have been quite a bit older than Emma and fibbed to cover the age gap. Who knows about his marital status given.

I am guessing that these are the people who witnessed the marriage. They are living in the same street as Edward and Emma.

1891:

Name: Henry Rawlinson
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Selma Rawlinson (Selina on orig)
Gender: Male
Where born: Kidsgrove, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Kidsgrove
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2156
Folio: 47
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Rawlinson 45
Selma Rawlinson 34
Mary Ann Rawlinson 12
Win Rawlinson 9
Hannah Rawlinson 8
Henry Rawlinson 6
Sarah Ellen Rawlinson 4
Ernest Rawlinson 3
Isabella Rawlinson 1

1891:
Name: Edwin Fugh
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Fugh
Gender: Male
Where born: Worcester, England
Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Kidsgrove
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: Gas Stoker

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2156
Folio: 47
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Edwin Fugh 33
Emma Fugh 31 born London, Middlesex
Elizabeth Emma Fugh 8 born Kidsgrove, Staffordshire
Edward Fugh 6 born Kidsgrove, Staffordshire

???
Births Jun 1883
DANIELS Elizabeth Wolstanton 6b 166

Births Jun 1885
Pugh Edward Wolstanton 6b 117

Marilyn,

I have a feeling that this is your Edward. I also think that the stated father Edward might well be just another of the porkies that Edward told because it looks as though he may have been born illegitimately.

1861:
Name: Edward Pugh
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Hannah Pugh born Brinsop, Herefordshire
Gender: Male
Where born: Cradley, Herefordshire, England
Civil parish: Cradley
Ecclesiastical parish: North Hill
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Bromyard
Sub-registration district: Bishops Frome
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 62
Piece: 1828
Folio: 54
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hall 41
Ann Hall 38
William Hall 11
Elizabeth Hall 7
Mary Ann Hall 3
Lacey Hall 1
Hannah Pugh 35
Emma Pugh 6
Edward Pugh 4
Edith Pugh 1

1871:
Name: Edward Pugh
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Hannah Pugh
Gender: Male
Where born: Bradley, Herefordshire, England
Civil parish: Great Malvern
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Great Malvern
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Upton On Severn
Sub-registration district: Hanley
ED, institution, or vessel: 6b
Household schedule number: 435
Piece: 3054
Folio: 45
Page Number: 45
Household Members:
Name Age
Hannah Pugh 45
Emma Pugh 14
Edward Pugh 14
Edith Pugh 11

His mother in 1841 and 1851:


1841:
Name: Hannah Pugh
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Herefordshire, England
Civil parish: Hampton Bishops
Hundred: Grimsworth
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Fowkshope
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 422
Book: 13
Folio: 6
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Pugh 40
Hannah Pugh 35
Mary Pugh 15
>>>Hannah Pugh 15
Richard Pugh 4
Charlote Pugh 2


1851:
Name: Hannah Pugh
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Patient
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Brinsop, Herefordshire, England
Civil parish: Hereford St Owen
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 4b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 85
Piece: 1978
Folio: 244
Page Number: 19

Good spot, Jonesey

I'd tried searching for them in 1891, using forenames only, but missed that record

Must get some new specs

both Edith (1883) and Edward (1885) are on staffs bmd registered as Pugh with mmn = Daniels

presumably parents had been living together as man & wife

perhaps they only married when they were thinking of emigrating as they may have had to prove they were married