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I mostly work with Scotlands People but have an "errant" relation who was born over the Border in England, I presume Northumberland (but not certain) in 1862 +/- 1 yr. His Death Cert says his mother was Christine/a Kidd, Father Charles Rutherford (1837 - 1904)

I'm a bit of a novice with BMD and Ancestry. Can any kind soul help me to confirm or otherwise, his Mother and his DOB? Many thanks. Malcolm.

If this is him, birth is Renwick - wherever that is!!

1901 Scotland Census about Charles Rutherford
Name: Charles Rutherford
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Jane Rutherford
Gender: Male
Where born: England, Renwick
Registration number: 692/2
Registration district: Leith South
Civil parish: Leith South
Town: Leith
County: Midlothian
Address: 43 Primrose St
Occupation: Railway Carters Foreman
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 74
Line: 22
Roll: CSSCT1901_399
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Rutherford 38
Jane Rutherford 36
Isabella Rutherford 14
John Rutherford 11
William B Rutherford 9
James Rutherford 6

I see the problem - there is no birth in Cumbria, which I think is where Renwick is, and at least 3 in Northumberland. I assume you have found these?
Have you got him on 1911 census?
Jan

THank you Those census details are correct. Up to now I have never known where his birthplace was as it is only shown as "England" in the census. I'm very interested to confirm who his mother was - she seems to have died fairly soon after and didin't come to Scotland. Poss illegit?

?????


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CHARLES RUTHERFORD Pedigree
Male


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Event(s):
Birth: 07 SEP 1865 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
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Parents:
Father: CHARLES DICKSON RUTHERFORD Family
Mother: CHRISTINA SMART


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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Thanks Ann, but that's not our man.

What details of his parents are on the marriage cert ?

Does it give any occupation for his father ?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Renwick, formerly known as Ravenwick, is a small village in the English county of Cumbria. It forms part of the civil parish of Kirkoswald in the District of Eden. Renwick is located north east of Penrith between the A686 and B6413 roads.


Haresceugh
One mile south-east of the village in the hamlet of Haresceugh are the fragmentary remains of Haresceugh Castle, the site of which is now occupied by a farmhouse. Two sections of walling remain from the castle. There are no amenities in Renwick,the nearest facilities are in Kirkoswald. Renwick is a small, close-knit community and has a active farm.

several Kidds in Renwick 1861


1861 Address: Renwick Village, Renwick
KIDD, Ann Head Widow F 57 1804 Owner Of Houses And Land
Renwick
Cumberland
DUNAS, Jane Servant Unmarried F 18 1843 House Maid
Croglin
Cumberland

1861 Address: Renwick Village, Renwick
JAMES, John Head Married M 57 1804 Agricultural Labourer
Renwick
Cumberland
JAMES, May Wife Married F 57 1804
Renwick
Cumberland

1861 Address: Renwick Village, Renwick
KIDD, John Head Unmarried M 52 1809 Farmer Of 26 Acres Employing...Labourer
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, William Brother Unmarried M 40 1821 ...
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Isaac Brother Unmarried M 37 1824 ...
Renwick
Cumberland
IRVING, Mary Ann Servant Married F 25 1836 ...Dairy Maid
...
Cumberland

1851 Address: Renwick, Renwick
KIDD, John Head Married M 44 1807 Landed Proprietor And Releeving Officer
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Ann Wife Married F 47 1804
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Hannah Daughter Unmarried F 17 1834
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Thomas Son Unmarried M 15 1836 Scholar
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, John Son Unmarried M 13 1838 Scholar
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, George Son M 6 1845 Scholar
Renwick
Cumberland

1851 Address: Renwick, Renwick
KIDD, Mary Head Widow F 70 1781 Farmer
Kirkoswald
Cumberland
KIDD, John Son Unmarried M 44 1807 Farmers Son Ag Labourer
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, William Son Unmarried M 34 1817 Farmers Son Ag Labourer
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Isaac Son Unmarried M 31 1820 Farmers Son Ag Labourer
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Mary Grand Daughter Unmarried F 21 1830 House Servant
Renwick
Cumberland

1851 Address: Dirah, Renwick
DIXON, Thomas Head Married M 50 1801 Farmer
Renwick
Cumberland
DIXON, Ann Wife Married F 47 1804
Renwick
Cumberland
DIXON, John Son M 9 1842 Scholar
Renwick
Cumberland
DIXON, Thomas Son M 7 1844
Renwick
Cumberland
DIXON, Joseph Son M 4 1847
Renwick
Cumberland
KIDD, Joseph Nephew M 14 1837
Renwick
Cumberland

1851 Address: Melmerby
ELLWOOD, Thomas Head Widower M 49 1802 Taylor Master Employing 1 Man
Great Salkeld
Cumberland
KEDD, Mark Ellwood Son Unmarried M 5 1846 Scholar
Gamblesby
Cumberland
KIDD, Mary Servant Unmarried F 45 1806 House Keeper
Renwick
Cumberland

1841 Address: Penwick, Renwick
KIDD, John M 35 1806 Cumberland
KIDD, Ann F 35 1806 Cumberland
KIDD, Hannah F 9 1832 Cumberland
KIDD, Mary F 8 1833 Cumberland
KIDD, Ann F 6 1835 Cumberland
KIDD, Thomas M 5 1836 Cumberland
KIDD, John M 3 1838 Cumberland
KIDD, Thomas M 75 1766 Cumberland
KIDD, George M 65 1776 Cumberland
SOWERBY, John Railton M 30 1811 Cumberland
GRAHAM, William M 15 1826 Cumberland
GRAHAM, Margaret F 20 1821 Cumberland

1841 Address: Penwick, Renwick
ALLISON, William M 35 1806
ALLISON, Ann F 41 1800 Cumberland
ALLISON, John M 11 1830 Cumberland
ALLISON, William M 9 1832 Cumberland
ALLISON, Frances F 5 1836 Cumberland
RAIN, Jane F 11 1830 Cumberland
KIDD, Ann F 30 1811 Cumberland

1841 Address: Penwick, Renwick
KIDD, Joseph M 35 1806 Cumberland
KIDD, Mary F 60 1781 Cumberland
KIDD, John M 30 1811 Cumberland
KIDD, William M 25 1816 Cumberland
KIDD, Mary F 11 1830 Cumberland
KIDD, Hannah F 8 1833 Cumberland
KIDD, Josep M 4 1837

No sign of Christina

1881 are you saying this is Charles with his father

Name: Charles Rutherford
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Roxburgh, Roxburghshire
Registration number: 737
Registration district: Eccles
Civil parish: Eccles
County: Berwickshire
Address: Orange Lane
Occupation: Agricultural Labrour
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 43
Line: 10
Roll: cssct1881_308
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Rutherford 40
Charles Rutherford 18 - England
James Rutherford 9
Cathern Rutherford 36 - sister - Kelso

1871
Name: Charles Rutherford
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relationship: Grandson
Mother's Name: Catherine Rutherford
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Registration number: 737
Registration district: Eccles
Civil parish: Eccles
County: Berwickshire
Address: Wormerlaw
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1871_174
Household Members: Name Age
John Rutherford 78
Elizabeth Rutherford 73
Catherine Rutherford 27 - Kelso
Charles Rutherford 8



Catherine matches the 1881 as sister of Charles

Household transcription
1881 Address: Orange Lane, Eccles
RUTHERFORD, Charles Head Widower M 40 1841 Agricultural Labourer
Roxburgh
Roxburghshire
N/A
RUTHERFORD, Charles Son Unmarried M 18 1863 Agricultural Labourer
England
N/A
RUTHERFORD, James Son M 9 1872 Scholar
Stitchel
Roxburghshire
N/A
RUTHERFORD, Catherine Sister Unmarried F 36 1845 House Keeper
Kelso
Roxburghshire

1861 Address: Newtown, Eccles
RUTHERFORD, John Head Married M 68 1793 Ploughman
Stitchell
Roxburghshire
N/A
RUTHERFORD, Betty Wife Married F 63 1798
Roxburgh
Roxburghshire
N/A
RUTHERFORD, Charles Son Unmarried M 23 1838 Ploughman
Roxburgh
Roxburghshire
N/A
RUTHERFORD, Cathrine Daughter Unmarried F 19 1842 Ag Lab
Kelso
Roxburghshire

Marvellous! Thanks to all of you. In summary, my Relation Charles who was a ploughman had moved a long way (relatively for those days though the trains were in operation at that time) from Roxburghshire to North Cumbria. With numerous KIDD families in the area it seems he "met up" with one and she had the child who they also named Charles. They did not marry apparently however he returned to Scotland with Charles Junior.

All of the census information for Scotland is correct.

The doubt over "Christine/a" is not necessarily important. The mothers name was reported by Charles half brother James when both were elderly. I'm happy that the Surname is at least highly probable.

I'll study all the above with interest. Cheers. Malcolm.

P.S. I note the 1871 entry for Charles juniors mother as Catherine Rutherford. I don't think this is true as I don't think Catherine ever left the country whereas Charles apparently did. I believe they gave Catherine as the mothers name to cover up an illegitimate birth and absoption into the Rutherfords in Scotland.

Just one point- if Catherine was written in poor handwriting it could look like Christine.

I will definitely be studying this more closely.

At the moment the possibilties are that the birth was not registered and the senior Rutherfords - who were getting on a bit and had a single daughter,Catherine, were quite happy to take the child.

I'm curious that Charles (Senior) went so far to work, though things were not too good for Ag. Labs round the last quarter of the 19th century. The fact that I had the name KIDD, and the number in the region of Renwick suggests that Christine/a did exist. There is always the possibility that she died in childbirth which would be awful. I will be looking for the possibility that he DID bring her back with him. He later married another woman who mothered his second son, James. On that marriage cert he's shown as a bachelor so whether the mysterious Christine survived and came to Scotland or not, it seems he never married her.

The younger Charles (born in England) went on to Marry my Great Grandmother Janet Bald who was, apparently, a sainted lady.

The stuff of novels (and Soap Operas lol). Malc.

Another Twist in the tale....when illegitimate Charles Rutherford married my Ggrandmother he put his mothers name as Christina MAIN, not Christina KIDD. On his death cert it appears as Christina KIDD so where did the change come from?

Is there a Christina MAIN in Renwick around 1863, who might subsequently have married a KIDD?

All help to date much appreciated.