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Sorry Carole, I just finished editing about Frances as you posted

This looks promising, thanks Chris. Emma named one of her children Frances so looks like could be her family. There's also an Emma Jane Rayner born 1849 in Mitford, but this is more likely to be the one due to the age.

Thanks for your help.

A possibility????

There are these baptisms for Hannah Frances Rayner and Emma Jane Rayner in Longham Norfolk (Longham is about 2 miles from Gressenhall). Mother Frances Rayner no father recorded.

Think these are the birth registrations for the girls

Hannah Frances Rayner
Sept Q 1851
Mitford 13 222

Emma Jane Rayner
Mar Q 1854
Mitford 4b 269

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12596-71975-97?cc=1416598&wc=MMVP-7VD:804500147



I think that this is Hannah in the 1861 census and she is recorded as being born in Gressenhall and as your Emma Rayner/Harman was recorded as being born in Gressenhall maybe the above is her baptism.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=0&gsfn=hannah&gsln=rayner&sx=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f27=&f14=&f15=gress*&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1861&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gl=&gss=error&gst=&so=3


Also Emma & William had a daughter Frances Edith Matthews born 1881, possibly named after Grannie???

Thanks so much for the recent information. Deetortrainingnewfys - yes this is the death of Emma Jane and I will certainly look into the Rayner information you have provided. Chris - I've just had a look at the marriage and yes this is definitely William and Emma - thanks so much for your help - I can now go forward with this and research further on this side of the family.

Marriage:

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=85784


Note: one of the witnesses was Elizabeth Rix

There are no details for the brides father so could it be that Emma was using her mother's name and father's name (Rayner and Harman) at various times

I was looking at the 1901 census mentioned earlier and could not find Emma in 1911 but found this death:

Is this the death of your Jane?

Name: Emma Jane Matthews
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1907
Age at Death: 53
Registration district: Norwich
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 66

If this is the case, It might be worth ordering the death cert as it will give her maiden name and posible birth date.

Marriage:
groom's name: William Rayner
bride's name: Sarah Ann Thurlow
marriage date: 24 Dec 1848
marriage place: Scole, Norfolk, England
indexing project (batch) number: I07421-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2262381

William Rayner in 1841:
Name: William Rayner
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Scole
Hundred: Diss
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View image

Registration district: Depwade
Sub-registration district: Diss
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 758
Book: 11
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Rayner 40
Robert Rayner 17
Ellen Rayner 16
Charles Rayner 14
William Rayner 12
Betsey Rayner 10
George Rayner 8
Sidney Rayner 5
Catherine Rayner 2

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 758; Book: 11; Civil Parish: Scole; County: Norfolk; Enumeration District: 1; ; Page: 1; Line: 16; GSU roll: 438852.

Marriage: Thomas Rayner & Susanna Valentine Smith 9/1/1821 Scole

Wife's Buriel just before 1841 census.
name: Susan Valentine Rayner
gender: Female
burial date: 13 Jan 1841
burial place: Scole, Norfolk, England
indexing project (batch) number: I07421-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2262381

No Harman connections there.

Yes it is the same William Matthews in 1851 and 1861 - just need to do some more research to see if Emma Rayner is Emma Harman - name Harman was given on daughter Estella (my gt grandmother)'s birth cert. William's father, also William was a millwright engineer so if the marriage cert of William and Emma gives William snr's occupation as millwright engineer that will be too much of a co-incidence? possibly... Thanks everyone for the info.

Could this be Emma?

name: Emma Rayner
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 07 Jul 1851
baptism/christening place: Scole, Norfolk, England
father's name: William Rayner
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I07421-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number:

AND THIS THE FAMILY IN 1851
Name: Emma Rayner
Age: under 1 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Rayner
Mother's name: Sarah Rayner
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Scole, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Scole
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Depwade
Sub-registration district: Harleston
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 56
Piece: 1821
Folio: 286
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
William Rayner 22
Sarah Rayner 20
George Rayner 2
Emma Rayner under 1 Mo
Mary Bell 2??

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1821; Folio: 286; Page: 14; GSU roll: 207474-207475.

And the same family in 1851?

Name: William Matthews
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Matthews
Mother's name: Sophia Matthews
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: East Dereham
Town: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

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Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 80
Piece: 1825
Folio: 93
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
William Matthews 50
Sophia Matthews 40
Elizabeth Matthews 9
William Matthews 6
Sophia Matthews 5 Mo

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1825; Folio: 93; Page: 20; GSU roll: 207479.

Is this william in 1861?

Name: William Matthews
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Matthews
Mother's name: Sophia Matthews
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: East Dereham
Town: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

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Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: East Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 90
Piece: 1242
Folio: 93
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
William Matthews 60
Sophia Matthews 49
Elizabeth Matthews 19
William Matthews 16
Sophia Matthews 10

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Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 1242; Folio: 93; Page: 16; GSU roll: 542782.

Found these which may be a help, even though dates are different


name: William Matthews
event: Marriage
event date: 25 Mar 1871
event place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
gender: Male
marital status: Single
residence: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
spouse: Emma Rayner
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's residence: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
digital folder number: 004034129

Name: William Matthews
event: Marriage
event date: 05 Mar 1871
event place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
gender: Male
marital status: Single
residence: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
spouse: Emma Rayner
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's residence: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
digital folder number: 004034129

name: Willam Matthews
event: Marriage
event date: 25 Mar 1871
event place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
gender: Male
father: William Matthews
marital status: Single
residence: Dercham
spouse: Emma Rayner
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's residence: Dercham
digital folder number: 004034131

This shows that she is single

Name: Emma Jane Rayner
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1849
Registration district: Mitford
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 13
Page: 204

Births Dec 1849 (>99%)
HARMAN Emma Jane Mitford &c 13 204

Recommendation from another thread. Sorry I deleted, now reinstated. EDIT Also on that thread, someone else has said there are lots of Norfolk Records on the new Family Search site

I have been looking on Family Search for my family in Norfolk, with little sucess.
Thought I'd try somewhere else.
Went to GENUKI Then Norfolk Church Records.
Then scroll down to Baptisms = Norfolk Baptism Project 1813 to 1880
It is a link through Rootsweb and lists churches with those highlighted that have been transcribed.

The web page is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tinstaafl/

Hope this helps somebody, as it did me .

Thanks for that - I'll have a look

Yes it is.

is this them

1871 census.
Name: William Matthews
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Doreham, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Great Witchingham
Town: Great Witchingham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Registration district: St Faith
Sub-registration district: St Faith
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 2
Piece: 1805
Folio: 41
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Rudd 56 occ miller journeyman
Mary Ann Rudd 49
William Rudd 20
John Kent 30
William Matthews 25 b dereham occ millwright journeyman
Emma Matthews 20

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1805; Folio: 41; Page: 1; GSU roll: 838801.

Thanks for your help.

1901 England Census about Emma Matthews
Name: Emma Matthews
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Norwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Southgate St Peter
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Norwich
Sub-registration district: East Wymer
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 308
Piece: 1841
Folio: 60
Page Number: 47
Household Members:
Name Age
Emma Matthews 54
Arthur Matthews 26
Annie Matthews 21
Victor Matthews 15
Frances Matthews 20
Lewis Matthews 10