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Just had one more idea.

Let's assume Thomas is correct about his date of birth.
A visit to the Ormskirk registrars should be able to ascertain who was born in that district on that day - including any male babies who hadn't yet been named.

It could possibly tip over into the next quarter if parents were late registering the birth.

OK.

Possible avenues which could be followed up perhaps are school records - if you know where the boys went to school - or the records of the orphanage if you know which one it was.

If you know where they lived when the boys were little, you could maybe follow Richard in the electoral registers.

1930's depression who knows? we certainly don't. Thanks for all your help signing off for now, may follow this up tomorrow. Bye for now

Hmmm - what sparked that, do you know? I can't find any Goulbourne/Gouldbourne deaths around that time in the area.

no he was put in an orphanage with Patrick in 1935

Do you know the name of the woman who raised Thomas?

There isn't a cert with those details so you can't.

One possible scenario is that Richard marries Sheila in 1927
they have Patrick at the end of 1929
Sheila dies very end of 1929 or early 1930

Richard possibly marries again to Mary McParland.

I think you need to prove this first by getting the 2 marriage certs to see if the Richards are the same person
(order from here http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ )

If Mary is a widow or divorcee with married name McCarthy, then I think that birth is probably your Thomas, raised by Richard from babyhood so to all intents and purposes Richard would appear to be his father.

If you want to spend the cash (certs are £9-25 a go) I would get Sheila's death cert too.

What do you think?

I can see where you are coming from. So are you saying request a birth certificate for Thomas James Goulbourne, father Richard Goulbourne, mother Mary McParland is that what you mean is that the line you are thinking of and is this possible to do ?

Think I'm going way off piste here but this birth is looking interesting in the light of that marriage:

Births Dec 1930
McCarthy Thomas McParland Ormskirk 8b 1336

I wonder if Richard did marry again, and Thomas was Mary's son. The date matches what your f-i-l insists on.

Did Richard marry again? This fits for place and date.

Name: Richard Goulbourne
Spouse Surname: Mary Mcparland
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1931
Registration district: Ormskirk
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 1803

What happened to Sheila? Did she die in childbirth?

Name: Sheila Goulbourne
Birth Date: abt 1903
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1930
Age at Death: 27
Registration district: Ormskirk
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 934

Why do both boys have the middle name James I wonder.

I think I would buy Patrick's birth cert if I were you, and see if his birthday is 14th November! The date has obviously come from somewhere.

Have emailed a reply, perhaps we do but he was always adamant his dob was 14/11/1930

Thomas says that Patrick is older than him so perhaps you need to widen the net for Thomas's birth.

Have e-mailed the details to you rather than post here as these people are probably living.

So will have to update my tree

Yes i know that but Thomas, Patricks brother has always been adamant that his brother was born in 1927, and Thomas was born in 1930. But we have not been able to find any record of Thomas's dob as he has never had a birth certificate. We think they might have had the same father but maybe not the same mother. Yes if you would be so kind for the info on Patricks daughter.

Graham, on your tree on here you have Patrick born 1929 already so why are you giving different dates now?

There was a daughter born to this marriage. Do you want the info or do you have it?