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Tangled - understatement of the year!!

Thanks to all. Now I need to sit down, enter all the details to my tree and see where I go next.

I'll be off line for a bit - back later

Peter

Ah good one Astra!

What a tangled family!!! Peter you have some untangling to do but I reckon you have three families in one....John and Caroline; John and Esther (bigamous); and John and Esther Legit!!!!! No wonder he died in his sixties he must have been wprn out!!

Just coming back to this to see what has happened while i have been out. Nice work Jude.

This is Alice in 1881

MESNARD, Mary Ann Head Single F 40 1841 Stationer
Bexley Heath, Kent VIEW
MESNARD, Fanny Jane Sister Single F 30 1851 Stationer Assistant
Bexley Heath, Kent VIEW
MESNARD, Stephen Wm Brother Single M 24 1857 Draper
Bexley Heath, Kent VIEW
HILLIER, Mary Ann Visitor Single F 40 1841 Dressmaker
Bermondsey, Surrey VIEW
>>DAVIES, Alice Mary Niece Single F 4 1877
Dalston, Middlesex VIEW

Piece: 861 Folio: 11 Page: 16 Registration District: Dartford Civil Parish: Bexley Municipal Borough: Address: Post Office, Bexley County: Kent

Hi Peter - welcome awake!!!

OK as I see it...

Caroline Louisa, Florence, Frederick John, Edward Arthur, Minnie Rosamund, Maude, Constance, Francis W and Clara W are children of John and Caroline

John Mesnard and Elizabeth are children of the bigamous union between John and Esther

Nathaniel, Blanch Edith and Beatrice Maud are legitimate children of John and Esther

But who is Alice - where was she when they were in Brighton in 1881

Slowly waking!!! Alice is a witness at John Mesnard Davis' marriage.....

Serious thimking to do.....

Thanks.

Peter

Oh Peter, when you wake up in NZ you have a lot to take in!

The way I am looking at it is that John Davis had two families at the same time. It's really hard to believe (even though his name is so common) that two separate John Davis' could marry Esther Elizabeth Abrahams whose father was Mesnard.

So I think John and Caroline had their family and he bigamously married Esther and had at least two children with her while still married to (and presumably living with) Caroline. Then Caroline died in 1871 so he married Esther again to legalise it and they had another three children together. Only one I haven't a clue about is Alice from 1891 census.

You have a lot of tangled webs to sort out! :-S

If you google John Mesnard Davis 1867 london ,there is an extensive tree by someone with them all on.
It seems very well researched.

John Davis seems to have been a very busy naughty boy!!!!!!!!

1st husband of Esther Elizabeth Mesnard
William Abrahams of The crown and Cushion Little Queen Street Holborn died 9/12/1863 probate 5/1/1864 £450 to widow Esther Elizabeth Abrahams.

Maryb.

and 1911 census


Name: Beatrice Maud Debnam
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Bermondsey
Civil parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 86 Bramcote Road, Rotherhithe New Road, Camberwell S E
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 7
Estimated Marriage Year: 1904
Occupation: NIL
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration District Number: 27
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Piece: 2542
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Robert Debnam 33
Beatrice Maud Debnam 37

her age is actually 31 I think

Beatrice marriage maybe

Name: Beatrice Maud Davis
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Spouse Name: Thomas Robert Debnam
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 3 Apr 1904
Parish: Stoke Newington St Faith
Borough: City of London
Father Name: John Davis
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Robert Debnam
Register Type: Parish Register

I don't believe there are two of them....perhaps the first marriage was bigamous! And then when Caroline died he married her again!!

The publican occupation fits in with some more marriages as well

Jude

1891!!


Name: Beatrice Davis
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Davis
Mother's Name: Esther Davis
Gender: Female
Where born: Champion, Hill
Civil parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Epsom
Sub-registration district: Carshalton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 544
Folio: 37
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
John Davis 56
Esther Davis 41
Edith Davis 18
Alcie Davis 14
Beatrice Davis 11
Edward Saville 18
View
Original
Record

View original image

John is a licensed victualler at this stage but he is born Westerham age wrong...and Esther in Bexley - age out -..Edith is Brixton which ties in with Blanch Edith but age is out. Beatrice M = Mitcham don't know who or where Alice has come from!

So we have Esther Elizabeth Abrahams nee Mesnard born 1843 Bexley Kent.
She married 1866 John Davis and married 1872 John Davis.
1871 John Davis with wife Caroline.

1871 St Mary Newington Trinity Newington D14 > 10 Buckingham Street??
Esther E Davies no occupation wife born @ 1845 BEXLEY
John M Davies born 1868 Kings Cross (is this John Mesnard Davies) with dad John a Solicitor?
Elizabeth Davies 1870 Hampstead.

1881 John Davis with wife Esther E Davis born BEXLEY!!

Strange to say the least.

Maryb.

Complication alert!!!

there is this marriage in 1866...but "our" John is still with Caroline in 1871

Name: Esther Elizabeth Abrahams
Spouse Name: John Davis
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 22 Dec 1866
Parish: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Father Name: John Mesnard
Spouse Father Name: Nathaniel Davis
Register Type: Parish Register

Nathaniel's death?

Name: Nathaniel G Davis
Birth Date: abt 1874
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Age at Death: 58
Registration district: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 858

Can't find them in 1911

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about John Peters
Name: John Peters
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: 25th Feb 1822********************
Baptism Date: 6 Apr 1823
Father's Name: John Peters SPINNER****************
Mother's Name: Rosanna Peters
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers




London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Rosanna Peters
Name: Rosanna Peters
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: 22nd May 1824*******************
Baptism Date: 17 Sep 1826
Father's Name: John Peters
Mother's Name: Rosanna Peters
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Caroline Peters
Name: Caroline Peters
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: 27th Aug 1826***************
Baptism Date: 17 Sep 1826
Father's Name: John Peters
Mother's Name: Rosanna Peters
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers



Address Willow Walk and father is a Fancy Trim Maker

Both girls baptised the same day.

and in 1901 census


Name: Nathaniel Davis
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Florence E Davis
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 60
Piece: 276
Folio: 101
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Nathaniel Davis 27
Florence E Davis 26
Nathaniel N J Davis 1
Ellen Pile 29
George Reed 24
Phillip W Channell 19
Emily Mansfield 22
View
Original
Record

View original image

Here's Nathaniel's marriage (Horace is Florence!!)

Name: Nathaniel Glover Davis
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Spouse Name: Horace Edith Pile
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Jan 1899
Parish: Holy Trinity, Marylebone Road
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John Davis
Spouse Father Name: William Pile
Register Type: Parish Register

Mary Peter says the 1879 marriage is not correct for Edward - father IS John but occupation is musician

Choccy - interesting as we don't have a son John? We have a Frederick John but his mother would have been Caroline not Esther.