Find Ancestors

There's a tree on ancestry with Phyllis married to George Havenhand. It gives her parents as James Ellis and Lily Cavendish Barker - but no details on them.

Yes Reggie...that's the one I was gravitating towards!

Jude

Numerous Ellis/Barker marriages in West Yorks

This is one I wondered about

Marriages Dec 1913 (>99%)
Barker Laura Ellis Ecclesall B. 9c 753
Ellis James F Barker Ecclesall B. 9c 753

If Phyllis is a direct relative, investing in her birth cert would be the sensible course of action.

A pity your friend didn't think to ask for it as a Christmas gift

Moira

Have you and your friend just latched on to the 1903 marriage because of the surnames and location?

Have you given any thought to the possibility that the mother had been married before?

Phyllis's birth was, after all, shortly after the end of WW1....................

Also, parents don't necessarily marry in the same area as that in which they go on to have children.............

EDIT

It seems to have been proved conclusively that in 1903 Ellis and Barker did not marry each other

There's a death for George Chadwick in 1909 but can't find a widowed Sarah E in 1911 :-(

There's a marriage in 1939 in Sheffield of a Mary Ellis to Havenhand...so if she dropped the Phyllis at marriage it works.

with two daughters from that marriage....

Moira...we really really need you to come back!

If your friend is related to Phyllis Mary then we really need to know HOW she came to the parents you give because I really don't think they are correct. But we are all just surmising at the moment!

Jude

I traced the same info Jude - but like you can't find George Chadwick either - but then again we have no real ideas of their ages.

Ancestry is linking to this death for Phyllis, but I've not checked it out:

Phyllis Mary Havenhand
Birth Date: 11 Mar 1919
Date of Registration: Jun 2002
Age at Death: 83
Registration District: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Register Number: A76A
District and Subdistrict: 0481A
Entry number: 115

Should have checked this out earlier - Flip looks like you were correct if this little thread works out :-)

Elizabeth Gertrude Coward married Henry Rodgers in 1883

Marriages Mar 1883 (>99%)
COWARD Gertrude Sheffield 9c 503
RODGERS Henry Sheffield 9c 503

He died in 1898

Deaths Dec 1898 (>99%)
Rodgers Henry 38 Sheffield 9c 327

Then she married John George Ellis in 1903......

He died in 1904...

And this is her in 1911

Name: Edith Ellis
Age in 1911: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
Country: England
Street Address: 92 Granville Lane Sheffield
Registration District: Sheffield
Registration District Number: 510
Sub-registration District: Sheffield Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 27896
Household Members:
Name Age
Gertrude Ellis 45
Edith Ellis 7
Harry Rodgers 21

So.....we really do now need input from Moira.

How do you know Phyllis Mary's parents?

Jude

Just wondering if he could be "our" John George´s father. in which case it might be possible to find young John George on a census.

Yes Wisechild - saw that ......he was 51 years old. We really need Moira to come back and tell us how she knows what she says she knows about Phyllis - assuming Phyllis is the key

Jude

There´s a death for a John George Ellis recorded in 1904 in Eccleshall Bierlow.
If it´s the same man, he could´nt be Phyllis´s father
Mother´s maiden name on the birth cert would be Barker, even if she had re married.

Moira...we are going round in circles a little :-(

Can you post the facts that you know - and you/your friend know them.

So how is your friend related to Phyllis Mary?

Is Phyllis Mary still alive? If not, did she marry? Do you know here married name?

How do you know Phyllis Mary's parents?

Jude

Yes Flip...was heading that way myself (but can't find George Chadwick anywhere either :-(

Jude

Are you absolutly sure you are pairing up the right couple for that 1903 marriage - ancestry is linking John George Ellis to Elizabeth Gertrude, not to Sarah Elizabeth?

If you know the parents are John George Ellis and Sarah Elizabeth, have you considered theirs may have been her second marriage?

If your friend does not have certs, how/where did she learn the names of Phyllis''s parents?

How does your friend know when and where Sarah was born?

Which cert do you think might be the 'wrong' one?

If there is no doubt about the info given, the certs of the birth and marriage must be correct

Or have you and your friend been guessing?

Yes but finding John George on any census (before 1911) would be useful...and the only way to be sure it is him is to (a) find his age and (b) his father's name/occupation - both of which will be on the certificate. For starters, once you know his parents...you could find them in 1911.

Without this info it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. It is a very common name.

How does your friend get back to them? Is she related to Phyllis? Does she remember John George or Sarah Elizabeth? Does she know when they died?

Jude

I must admit that it seems odd to me for the child to be born so long after the marriage, she has no certs as yet, as I have said she is on a limited budget and I don't want to tell her to send for the cert and it be the wrong one. Thats why I am trying to find something on the 1911 census, to see if there were any other children before Philis :-S

Moira...what does your friend know about John George? I think a good starting point would be their 1903 marriage certificate. I find it strange that a couple married in 1903 did not have children until 1916+

Jude

Need more help please to find John and Sarah on the 1911 census

thank you every one for your help, the second marriage solves a lot .

1901 England Census
about Annie Lumley Name: Annie Lumley
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Thomas R Lumley
Birth Place: Southport
Civil Parish: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas R Lumley 32
Annie Lumley 42
Gladys Lumley 3
Harry Lumley 1
Sarah E Barker 21 (Step Daughter)
Thomas Barker 18 (Stepson)
George Nicholson 29 (B in L)


Household transcription
1911 census
Person: LUMLEY, Annie
Address: 4 Low Street

LUMLEY, Thomas R Head Married21 years M 41 1870 Dock Foreman Lincs Stamford VIEW
LUMLEY, Annie Wife Married21 years F 53 1858 Lancs Southport VIEW
LUMLEY, Gladys Daughter F 13 1898 Yorks Sheffield VIEW
LUMLEY, Harry Son M 11 1900 Yorks Sheffield VIEW
LUMLEY, Ruby Daughter F 9 1902 Yorks Sheffield VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 27897
Reference: RG14PN27897 RG78PN1596 RD510 SD3 ED5 SN69
Registration District: Sheffield
Sub District: Sheffield Park
Enumeration District: 5
Parish: Sheffield
Address: 4 Low Street
County: Yorkshire (West riding)
(7 children born, 3 living, 4 had died)

As George Nicholson is the Brother in Law, this is probably Annie's first marriage...

Marriages Sep 1876 (>99%)
Barker James Sheffield 9c 488
Nicholson Annie Sheffield 9c 488