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Catherine, Chris Ho, PricklyHolly thank you all so much for that valuable info. It was so kind of you all to take the time & trouble to help me. Although I've been researching my family tree for many years, it's been in fits & starts, relying on the internet and, until his death about 12 years ago, my uncle. <3

Births Sep 1843 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
PAYNE William Lake Holborn 2 131

(not sure if above for him PH, can see a Baptism that could well match)

Chris :)

On the Payne/Kenny marriage record it states that William's father is a "Silversmith"

If this is William in the 1851 census....then he was not born in Ireland...


1851 England Census
about William Payne Name William Payne
Age:8
Estimated birth year:abt 1843
Relation:Son
Father's Name:James Payne
Mother's name:Elizabeth Payne
Gender:Male
Where born:St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish:St Luke Old Street
Ecclesiastical parish:Charterhouse St Thomas
County/Island:Middlesex
Country:England
Registration district:St Luke
Sub-registration district:Whitecross Street

:

James Payne 37 (Silversmith/Journeyman)
Elizabeth Payne 39
Elizabeth Payne 15
James Payne 12
Ann Payne 10
William Payne 8
Henry Payne 5
Edward Payne 1

Ooops....Chris had added this to her post.

Elizabeth Payne
Baptism Date:28 Nov 1875 (Born 15 Dec 1867)
Father's Name:William Payne (Blacksmith)
Mother's name:Catherine Payne
Parish or Poor Law Union:Charterhouse St Thomas
Borough:Islington
Register Type:Parish Registers
(abode, 4, Galloway Street)

(a possible)

Chris :)

1851 ?
PAYNE, James Head Married M 37 1814 Silversmith (Journeyman)
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 39 1812 Shop Work
Peckham, Middlesex
PAYNE, Elizabeth Daughter F 15 1836 Slop Work
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, James Son M 12 1839 Errand Boy
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, Ann Daughter F 10 1841 At Home
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, William Son M 8 1843 At Home
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, Henry Son M 5 1846 At Home
St Lukes, Middlesex
PAYNE, Edward Son M 1 1850 At Home
St Lukes, Middlesex
Piece: 1522
Folio: 292
Page: 6
Registration District: Saint Luke
Civil Parish: Saint Lukes
Municipal Borough: Finsbury
Address: 100, Golden Lane, Saint Lukes, Finsbury
County: Middlesex

Just going back to the 2 baptism records I posted for John Kenny and Catherine Kenny under the name of Mooney. Have checked freebmd and John is registered under the name of Mooney but Catherine seems to have been registered under both names, although Catherine is under the name of Kelly and not Kenny:-

Births Jun 1842
Mooney John East London 2 197

Births Mar 1844 (>99%)
Kelly Catherine E London 2 227
KELLY Catherine E London 2 2*
Moon Catherine East London 2 227
MOON* Catherine E London 2 227 (checked original and name is definately Mooney)

As Julia was in the workhouse in 1842 (birth of John) I checked 1841 census to see if Julia was there but can't see her?

Births Jun 1864 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
PAYNE William Shoreditch 1c 108

(a possible, from below)

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

(they seem to be hidden 1871!)

Chris :)

The nephew, William Payne, who was staying with Ann Steel (nee Kenny) & William Steel in the 1881 Census was 8 years old, born Hoxton. The only such William Payne I could find was listed in the GRO Birth Indices, indicating that his father, Wm Payne Sr, was in the army? Could explain why he was sent to live with his aunt for a while?

This is the marriage for 1911 couple:-

Marriages Mar 1870 (>99%)
Cole Edward Holborn 1b 729
xxxx HUNT Catherine Holborn 1b 729
NELSON Eliza Ann Holborn 1b 729
xxxx Payne William High T Holborn 1b 729

Exactly!, not sure 1911 is your couple.

Chris :)

Marriages Mar 1870 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
HUNT Catherine Holborn 1b 729
Payne William High T Holborn 1b 729

(possibly above)

edits (agrees with Catherine)

William Payne in the marriage to Catherine Kenny has occupation Blacksmith, so are you sure 1911 is correct?

Also, 1911 states this couple have been married for 41yrs which would make date c 1870, and not 1864?

How can Louisa be Catherine's sister if her maiden name is Hunt and Catherine's maiden surname is Kenny?
Catherine, no, I have nothing on Julia Kenny at all apart from what is on the 1851 Census: cap maker, born Cripplegate.

1911
PAYNE, William Head Married M 59 1852 Wine And Spirit Packer Dublin Ireland
PAYNE, Catharine Wife Married 41 years F 64 1847 Euston Sq Londons
PAYNE, Robert Son Single M 38 1873 Wine And Spirit Packer Kentish Town London
HUNT, Louisa Sister In Law Single F 60 1851 Peterborough (Deaf and Dumb from Birth)
RG number: RG14
Piece: 7231
Reference: RG14PN7231 RG78PN353 RD132 SD1 ED39 SN315
Registration District: Edmonton
Sub District: Hornsey
Enumeration District: 39
Parish: Hornsey
Address: 27 Northwood Road Highgate N
County: Middlesex


1891
HUNT, Thomas Head Married M 35 1856 Tobacconist
London
HUNT, Elizabeth E Wife Married F 38 1853
Tilehurst, Berkshire
HUNT, Louisa Sister Single F 40 1851 Dressmaker
Deaf & Dumb From Childhood Peterborough, Northamptonshire
BRYANT, Elizabeth Niece F 11 1880 Scholar
Croydon, Surrey
BRYANT, George Nephew M 5 1886
Croydon, Surrey
Piece: 1318
Folio: 78
Page: 55
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: Canning Town
Municipal Borough: West Ham
Address: 246, Victoria Dock Road, Canning Town, West Ham
County: Essex

(not sure about 1911 you mention?)

Chris :)

In my own research I have come accross illegitimate children who have given their grandfather's name on their marriage certificate.
Any idea who Julia's father was?

Oh for heaven's sake! I just looked at the 1911 Census and found the Catherine Payne (nee Kenny) & William Payne I've been researching--Catherine being Ann's sister. However, living with them is a Louisa Hunt, William's sister-in-law ("wife's sister") and she is unmarried! Catherine did not have a sister Louisa! Oh my...

Thanks Jacqueline.

Many thanks, just seen all these replies, a lot to read. Just to reply to some: Yes, potty, that's "my" Ann/Annie in the 1881 Census. PricklyHolly & Chris Ho: re Ann Kenny's marriage to William Steel, 17 Sep 1878, Shoreditch, 1c 361: witnesses are R Clay & Rose Gearing. Address for both William Steel & Ann Kenny at time of marriage: 24 Essex Street, Shoreditch

Hello Jacqueline and welcome to the Community Boards.





I will let Jacqueline know that she has replies to her query. :-)

.No forget that!

1851 England Census
about Patrick Kenny Name:Patrick Kenny
Age:1
Estimated birth year:abt 1850
Relation:Son
Father's Name:John Kenny
Mother's name:Julia Kenny Gender:
Male
Where born:Ireland
Civil Parish:Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish:All Saints
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England Registration district:Liverpool
Sub-registration district:St Martin


John Kenny 40 (Hardware Seller)
Julia Kenny 21
Catherine Kenny 4
Patrick Kenny 1
Patrick Roche 16
Lodgers...
Margaret Roche 20
Bridget Flynn 45

Is this just a coincidence....

???


1861 England Census
about Julia Kenny Name:Julia Kenny
Age:37
Estimated birth year:1824
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:John Kenny
Gender:Female
Where born:Ireland
Civil Parish:Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish:All Saints
Town:Liverpool
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England

Registration district:Liverpool
Sub-registration district:St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel:4

Household Members:

John Kenny 46 (Basket Hawker)
Julia Kenny 37
Catherine Kenny 14
Patrick Kenny 11
Thomas Kenny 7
Winnifred Kenny 7
Julia Kenny 4

All born Ireland except children Thomas, Winnifred and Julia...born Liverpool Lancashire.

Res: 4 Court, Grosvenor Street.

???

Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Winefrid Kenny Name:Winefrid Kenny
Birth Date:21 Oct 1853
Baptism Date:23 Oct 1853
Parish:St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's Name:John Kenny
Mother's name:Julia Brogan

On the same page.....


Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Thomas Kenny Name:Thomas Kenny
Birth Date:21 Oct 1853
Baptism Date:23 Oct 1853
Parish:St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's Name:John Kenny
Mother's name:Johanna Brogan

Looking for John Kenny

1851 census transcription details for: 2, Church Lane, Saint Giles???s In The Fields, Finsbury

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1509
Folio: 101
Page: 11
Reg. District: St Giles in the Fields & St George Bloomsbury
Sub District: North Saint Giles's in the Fields
Parish: Saint Giles???s in the Fields
Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Finsbury
Address: 2, Church Lane, Saint Giles???s In The Fields, Finsbury
County: Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
HENDRICK, John Lodger Unmarried M 36 1815 Bricklayer's Labourer
Ireland
FOX, Peter Lodger Married M 23 1828 Bricklayer's Labourer
Ireland
FOX, Mary Wife Married F 24 1827 Charwoman
Ireland
>>KENNY, John Lodger Unmarried M 29 1822 Bricklayer's Labourer
Ireland
NORFOLK, James Lodger Unmarried M 20 1831 Bricklayer's Labourer
Norfolk
NORTON, John Lodger Unmarried M 26 1825 Bricklayer's Labourer
Ireland