Find Ancestors

none of us can ... but some of us get a little obsessive even about other people's trees :-D

there are three trees at Ancestry/Mundia that have Alice Kilmaster but only one has her husbands and son in them and it has no more info than is in this thread

you can see them at Mundia by registering for free

http://www.mundia.com/gb/Person/9732121/-752684893
http://www.mundia.com/gb/Person/7429483/-660254340
http://www.mundia.com/gb/Person/921701/-944334286

and once you have registered you can send and receive messages to tree owners for free also



the Eva Amelia Horton I mentioned earlier, born West Ham living in Cheshire in1911, was christened in Cheshire in 1921

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JSZ2-GL4

and likely married in Southport in 1934 I would guess
(2 Eva A Horton births, 2 marriages)



someone here at GenesReunited does have Alice Kilminster and her sisters Mabel and Hollie in their tree

In view of the lack of 'Ava',s I feel sure that Eva was probably her birth name. I will look into all your suggestions and see if I can come to a positive result. Unfortunately I cannot devote my full time to this. Your help is much appreciated.

here is Amund Charles Hansen in the 1930 US census

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XC3S-475

Name: A Charles Hansen
Titles and Terms:
Event Type: Census
Event Year: 1930
Event Place: McGilvra, King, Washington, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 47
Marital Status: Married
Race (Original): White
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1883
Birthplace: France
Immigration Year:
Father's Birthplace:
Mother's Birthplace: England
Head A Charles Hansen M 47 France
Wife Martha C Hansen F 55 Illinois


and his death

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N31N-XT5

Name: A. Charles Hansen
Event Date: 06 Oct 1958
Event Place: Mercer Island, King Co., Washington
Gender: Male
Age (Formatted): 75 years
Birth Year (Estimated): 1883
Father's Name: Christropher Hansen
Father's Birthplace:
Mother's Name: Alice
Mother's Birthplace:



I should have noted that the only birth that could match the Eva Horton in the 1911 census at all closely is this one

Births Mar 1906
Horton Eva Amelia W. Ham 4a 252

but that one was most likely in Cheshire with father Harry (married, no wife present) in 1911.


however there is another Eva Horton in 1911 who might be of interest

Name: Eva Horton
Age in 1911: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1905
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Greenwich
Civil Parish: Foots Cray
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: Greenwich and Deptford Childrens Homes Workhouse), Halfway Street, Lamorbey, Sidcup
Occupation: School
Registration district: Bromley

the age or birthplace assigned to a child in a workhouse school might not be quite accurate

so that child could be this birth

Births Sep 1903
Horton Eva Marion Greenwich 1d 1127

if your Ava married in 1932 before her birthday that year and was 28 when she married, and that age was accurate, she could have been born in 1903

but that child could also be someone who was not born in England really


on the other hand the criminal charge information

Year 1927
Session Commencing Month Mar
Session Commencing Day 29
Age 21
Year Of Birth 1906

could match with someone born early in 1906 like the West Ham birth

Hi JoonieCloonie

Thank you. That looks worth following up. I will investigate further.

hello Robert, did you read through the idea I posted?

Eva Horton aged 5 in 1911, a 'visitor' in the household of George Horton and his wife Alice, who was formerly married to Norwegian Kristen Hansen and seems to have had son Amund Charles Hansen born in France

they were living in Ilford in 1911 and Eva Horton was said to have been born in Limehouse

there can be grains of truth in family stories without all the details being true :-)


Alice Kilmaster Hansen Horton we now see thanks to alviegal's additions

was born in 1854 so she was really too old to be Eva's mother

that Eva seems likely to have been a grandchild of George Horton, not related to Amund Hansen the head of household so described as 'visitor'

it could all be total coincidence, but a Norwegian seaman named Kristen Hansen whose widow is married to a Horton and has a child named Eva in her household ... that is a very big coincidence I think

I hadn't realised that 'Ava' is a Nordic name, not that it helps, but does add some weight to the story I think.

The 1911 census on this site is searchable by christian name only and est YOB.

What about the address on the marriage certificate, Robert ,has it been checked to see who else was listed.?

Thanks for your efforts.

To summarise:
My father and mother were 'working class'. I never met any of my mother's relations, and my father said he had not met any either! I am sure that she was born on 26 December (we celebrated her birthday then), but in 1904 or 1906 - marriage certificate indicates 1904, death certificate shows age 54 (1906) but no place of birth, memorial stone shows age 56 (1904).
When questioned many years ago, my father said he knew nothing about my mother's background, hence the difficulty I am having.
The story going around the family was that her father was a Norwegian sea captain, and she came to England at an early age and brought up in a large house. (Was this a cover story)

From atree on ancestry. No mention of Eva/Ava though.



amund charles hansen
Birth 16 sep 1883 in le havre normandy france
Death 6 oct 1958 in King County, Washington, USA


his father
kristen hansen
Birth 1854
Death 188?


Occupation
1881
London, London, England
seaman


his father
amman hansen


Occupation
shoemaker

Interesting Joonie. Here is that marriage in more detail.


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about George Horton
Name: George Horton
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Age: 44
>>Spouse Name: Alice Hansen, widow
Spouse Age: 36
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Nov 1891
Parish: Whitechapel St Mary
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Thomas Horton, dec. horsekeeper
>>Spouse Father: Alfred Kilmaster, dec. clerk
Register Type: Parish Register


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Alice Kilmaster
Name: Alice Kilmaster
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 5 Nov 1854
Father's Name: Alfred Kilmaster
Mother's name: Alice Kilmaster
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers


and her marriage.


England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915 about Alice Kilmaster
Name: Alice Kilmaster
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1881
Registration district: London City
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 131
Records on Page:
Name
Catherine Collins
>>Kristen Hansen
Alice Kilmaster
George Taylor

there is another family in 1891 with an interesting Norway-France connection

in Brixton Lambeth

Hansen, mistranscribed, of course

Hans Hannen 31, commercial clerk, born Norway
Grace Hannen 25, actress, born California USA
Yronne Hannen 7 [or 9?], born France (she becomes a governess shown as born in Cognac)
Doris Hannen 5, born France

Hans is about 5 years younger than Alice [birth surname ?] Hansen Horton

but it's hard to see how they might be connected

except that Amand Hansen is about the same age as those children and born in France with a Norwegian/Danish surname

given how unusual (virtually non-existent) the name Ava was ......... Eva?


look at this one

1911

Name: Eva Horton
Age in 1911: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1906
Relation to Head: Visitor
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Limehouse, London, England

Name: Amund Charles Hansen
Age in 1911: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: France

Civil Parish: Ilford
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 15 Mortlake Road, Ilford, Essex
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Clerk To stockbroker
Registration district: Romford

Amund Charles Hansen 27
Alice Horton 56
- mother of above married 20 years, no children to marriage,born Camden Town
George Horton 63
- stepfather of above, born Aldgate, stableman
Eva Horton 5


hmmmmmm


Marriages Dec 1891
Hansen Alice Whitechapel 1c 620
Horton George Whitechapel 1c 620

1901 they are in St Botolph without Aldgate
George is a horsekeeper groom
and they have an adopted daughter (transcribed by Ancestry as housemaid, one despairs)
Elizabeth ??Carpice, 5 mo, born Whitechapel

'Amand' Hansen is a Boarder in Suffolk age 17, no occupation shown, born in Havre France

no luck finding anyone in 1891 yet ...

Births Jun 1905
Baker Ava May W. Ham 4a 108

1911 in Plaistow

Matthew John Baker 31
Ava Letitia Baker 34
Ivy Ethel Baker 1
John Edward Baker 9/12
Ava May Baker 5
Violet Annie Baker 5

she is called stepdaughter of the head as is Violet ... but her name would not have been Baker if she was not his child - ?

oh well that is because Ancestry has made a pig's ear of the household

it really looks like this

Matthew John TAYLOR 31
Ava Letitia TAYLOR 34 married 2 years, 2 children born to the marriage and living
Ivy Ethel TAYLOR 1
John Edward TAYLOR 9/12
Ava May Baker 5
Violet Annie Baker 5

no indication of a connection, just the only available Ava in the vicinity :-)


Marriages Dec 1929
BAKER Ava M Thomson W Ham 4a 856
Thomson Francis Baker W.Ham 4a 856

there are Thomson-Baker births in West Ham in 1931 and 1932

and Ava May Thomson died 1987 in Thurrock

so that rules her out, as I am sure you had already done, but there is the info for anyone else checking

Robert can you tell us anything about your father's socioeconomic / cultural background that might shed light on the kind of marriage he was likely to make, or on your mother's herself, any clue as to her place of origin or social class etc. (manner of speaking e.g.)? you never met any family of hers?

Ava was a very unusual name at that time ... although there were several Avarina-s born in Wales for instance


alviegal was being very delicate but you would have to agree there is a striking resemblance on the facts!

There is this as well. Not suggesting it is your mother, just posting the same name. Doesn't help with a place of birth either.


Home Office: Calendar of prisons Transcription
Print this page View image
First Name Ava
Last Name Horton
Suffix -
Year 1927
Session Commencing Month Mar
Session Commencing Day 29
Age 21
Year Of Birth 1906
Place of Birth Town -
Place of Birth County -
Occupation Servant
Place Surrey
Court Kingston-upon-thames
Title Information A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace
Series HO140
Piece Number 405

She was received in prison on 24 Feb 1927 and bailed at court 7 March 1927.
She was accused of stealing 6 watches and other articles from Bentall's Limited and receiving but was found not guilty and discharged.

Unfortunately not, they were my father's relations. My father always said that he knew nothing about my mother's background. (That generation did not talk about their ancestors/partners).

Just as a thought, do you recognise the names of witnesses on marriage cert? in case they are related to Ava in some way?

I think I've looked at most possible marriages between 1907 and 1911 in case Ava' s mum married and Ava took on a new surname, also looked at most of the parents of possible mothers to Ava, in case Ava was with grandparents. But still not found her I'm afraid.

But I think you can definitely discont the birth I posted for 'female Horton' as I think she died just after. ( HORTON Female 0 Maidstone 2a 458)

I am wondering if that is the birth, but that her mother married afterwards? just checking a couple of marriages >>>

Sorry, have to leave for a while but will look back later.