Find Ancestors

Hello everyone.

I am not sure if you will be able to help, but on the basis that it's easier to research other peoples' families, I would appreciate a little advice!
For clarity (I hope!), I am going to put info in the 1st posting, and my queries in the 2nd one.

For those of you who have Ancestry, I have a public tree on there - just look for David Harris/Leah Hill marriage and you will find it.

As you can see, David Harris has no spouse present in 1841. I am certain that the mother of the 3 children in that census is Leah, having found baptisms for the children, and a likely Birmingham marriage for David Harris to a Leah Hill in 1822. Fortunately for me, David Harris isn't as common a name as one might expect, and he was a carpenter, which is very helpful!

The mother of Elizabeth Harris in 1851 census was Emma Hill. (I have birth cert for Elizabeth).

1841 England Census

Name: David Harris
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Tardebigg
Hundred: Halfshire (Upper Division)
County/Island: Worcestershire

Registration district: Bromsgrove
Sub-registration district: Tardebigg

David Harris 40 born Tardebigge
Joseph Harris 15 born B'ham
Leland (Selina) Harris 14 born B'ham
Kesiah Harris 10 Born Tardebigge
Emma Harris 20 born out of county.


1851 England Census

Name: David Harris
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1798
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Tardebigg, Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham St Thomas

Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Thomas

David Harris 53
Emma Harris 44
Selina Harris 23
Elizabeth Harris 8
Letitia Harris 6
Martha Harris 4

Now the queries!

Firstly, I would really like to know what happened to Leah. Try as I might, I cannot pin down a death/burial.

There also does not seem to be a marriage for David Harris to an Emma Hill.

Thanks everyone..

Jan

What about this death:-

First name(s) LEAH
Last name HARRIS
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year -
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1839
District BROMSGROVE
County Worcestershire
Volume 18
Page 167

I can't see a marriage to Emma Hill either. Perhaps they never actually married?

Kath. x

Name: Charles Harris
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 04 Jan 1829
Christening Place: BORDESLEY,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: David Harris
Mother's Name: Leah

Kath, thank you.
How did that death elude me I wonder!!
I am sure I have blinkers on when it comes to my own family.
Much appreciated.
jan x

???????????

Name: Leah Harris
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1859
Registration District: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Event Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Volume: 6D
Page: 60
Line Number: 38

?????????????

Name: Leah Harris
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1864
Registration District: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Event Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Volume: 6D
Page: 30
Line Number: 7

Thank you Ann.
Obviously any of these might be her, but for now I am going to favour the Bromsgrove one, simply because the last child was born there 1831, and the family was living there 1841.
I can't see it on Ancestry for some reason, serves me right, should have trusted good old Freebmd!!
Jan

I found the death on Findmypast. As you say the 1839 death is in the same registration district as where the family were living in 1841 which is why I went for that one.

Kath. x

Kath, I suspect you are right and they never married. I have no idea who Emma Harris is in 1841, but did wonder if she might be Emma Hill, having taken on his surname.
I was interested in the probable same surname for Leah and Emma, but have found no link.
Thanks very much both of you for your efforts.
Jan x

1861 Census
6 Records found



Piece: RG9/2140 Place: St Martin -Warwickshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Birmingham Ecclesiastical Parish: St Luke
Folio: 42 Page: 20 Schedule: 132
Address: -

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HARRIS David Head M M 62 Carpenter Worcestershire - Tardebigge
HARRIS Emma Wife M F 42 Warwickshire - Aston
HARRIS Joseph Son M M 34 Bricklayer Warwickshire - Birmingham
HARRIS Caroline Dau M F 35 Staffordshire - Brewood
Page: 43/21 HARRIS Harriet Dau - F 9 Scholar Warwickshire - Birmingham
HARRIS Emily Dau - F 7 Scholar Warwickshire - Birmingham

Thank you safc.
I do have all census records though, just don't want people using their precious time finding them again!
Jan x

Hi Jan, couple of suggestions for what it's worth ........

Have you tracked David/Leah's children on the census, see if Leah turns up with one of them in 1841/51 and that death is wrong? If they were married in 1822, there were likely to be other children (apart from those on 1841) - have you found their christenings?

And if Leah was a similar age to David, why stop having children in 1831- maybe she died earlier than the civil registrations and maybe David/Emma married before 1837 (although odd they don't have a child until 1843, unless some died).

Have to get ready for work, but will look back this evening.

Burial (Find My Past)

First name(s) LEAH
Last name HARRIS
Birth year 1793
Death year 1839
Age 46
Burial year 1839
Burial day 30
Burial month 12
Place TARDEBIGGE
Church description ST BARTHOLOMEW
Church denomination ANGLICAN
County Worcestershire
Country England
Record set National Burial Index for England & Wales

(looks to match Death posted by Kath above)

Chris :)

Chris, many thanks for that - really does look like my Leah doesn't it. Might treat myself to the death cert to be certain. Useful to have her age too. Brilliant!

Flip - having had another search, I have found a couple of possible births in Tardebigg up till 1836.

I am not sure what these signify! I can't see a proper baptism record so no mother's name:

Name: Letitia Harris
Father: David Harris
Baptism: 19 May 1833 - Tardebigg, Worcester and Warwick, Stafford, England

Name: Laetitia Harris
Burial Date: 19 Apr 1835
Burial Place: Tardebigg Parish, Worcester and Warwick, England


Name: Letta Harris
Father: David Harris
Baptism: 7 Aug 1836 - Tardebigg Parish, Worcester and Warwick, England

David and Emma also had a daughter Letitia, born 1844, so I am unsure as to whether the 2nd child above survived, assuming she was born to David and Leah. But either way it would explain the gap after 1831.

I found births 1824 and 1827 for Joseph Harris and Joseph David Harris (presumably the Joseph 1841) respectively, the 1st one died in infancy. I was already fairly sure that David's father was called Joseph, which would mean it was important to use that name I imagine.

I am going to follow your suggestion and check out all possible children in later census - I do have most of them, but Joseph is relatively new, so here goes!

Many, many thanks everyone.

Jan

Well, having had a search, I am unable to locate Joseph Harris (born Birmingham abt 1828) in 1851. He married Caroline Bullock in Sept 1849 - I am 100% certain of this having seen the image of the cert.

If anyone can locate the couple 1851 I would appreciate it. They had no children as far as I can tell. Joseph was a bricklayer so relatively easy to spot. As luck would have it, the couple are with David and Emma in 1861.

I have Joseph after this.


1861 England Census

Name: Joseph Harris
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: 1827
Relation: Son
Father's Name: David Harris
Mother's name: Emma Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Martin

David Harris 62
Emma Harris 42
Joseph Harris 34
Caroline Harris 35 b. Brewood Staffs
Harriet Harris 9
Emily Harris 7

Thanks!

Jan

Just to add - Harriet and Emily are def. David and Emma's children, not Joseph's.
Jan

Just a thought.

If Emma Hill did happen to be Leah Hill's sister, it would have been illegal for her and David to marry, as at that time it was forbidden to marry your deceased husband's brother or your deceased wife's sister (it did happen, but it was against the law, so maybe they wouldn't have tried it?)

Kucinta is thinking on similar lines to me, but I couldn't find anything to back it up.

I also wonder, if the death for Leah is correct that would put her birth around 1793 - so 29 ish when they married in 1822 which is quite old. It makes it more unlikly that Emma was her sister as she wasn't born until c 1819/20. Did Leah have children before her marriage to David?? Could Emma be Leah's daughter, but went by the name Harris?

Kucinta & Flip, thanks for your replies.

I am so sorry to have taken so long to respond, have been really ill since last Friday only dipping in here briefly now & again, and managed to miss these completely.

Firstly, it is almost certain David and Emma did not marry, as on Elizabeth's birth cert Emma is only recorded as Hill - she registered the birth in this name also. Silly me for not taking this on board before.

I did use my initiative and track down the witnesses to the marriage of David and Leah, in the hope that the female was a Hill - but no. They married the previous year and their witnesses were - David Harris and Leah Hill! Just friends I suspect.

I cannot find evidence of a daughter Emma Hill to a Leah prior to her marriage to David, or an obvious marriage of a Leah to a Hill in the previous 10 years.

I have sent for the death cert, how can I do otherwise!

Jan x