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I have a puzzlement ................... but I don't know whether the records are available.


I have asked this before, but am wondering if there are any more records online


I have been looking on FMP most of today, and got nowhere.


I have been unable to find death records for the following couple ...................


My great aunt Hannah Cott(e)rell married John Wrigley in Lancashire on Nov 13 1902

Hannah was born in Oldham, Lancashire in early 1876 ...... baptized on Feb 6 1876

John was born in Oldham between 1875 and 1876 according to census records, but also says on his draft card that he was born 15 May 1873.


They sailed from Liverpool on the SS Etruria on Nov 15 1902, and arrived at Ellis Island on Nov 23 1902.

They said they were going to Newark, New Jersey to join "sister, Mrs Jackson, 194 High Street, Newark".

I have them on successive US censuses from 1910 to 1940, address being 136 New Street in each Census, and on the 1942 City Index


I have John Wrigley's draft card from 1917

They did not have any children

But I cannot find their deaths.


I think John Wrigley died some time after 1940/42


Gt Aunt Hannah was my mother's godmother, and I remember a letter coming from one of her neighbours to say she had died ................ I believe that I can date that to have been between March 1951 and March 1961 (when my mother died), and I believe they both died in Newark




Please could someone who knows much more about US records advise where else I can look, or is it just a matter that death records are not yet available?



Please note that I do NOT need anything other than the death records for either one of these people. I have everything else I require :-)

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&GScid=730315&CRid=730315&pt=Newark%20City%20Cemetery&

(not seeing Find A Grave, bit of info. above)

Bessmer Street
Newark
Essex County
New Jersey USA

Chris :)

New Jersey Deaths and Burials, 1720-1988

(google brings above, perhaps not complete!)


1950 Census Substitute (Ancestry)

(saw above from you 2010 on google, any more on that now perhaps?)


U.S. City Directories, 1821-1989 (Ancestry)

(New Jersey Newark 1942 at 136 New Street wife as Anna)

edits

(not sure above complete yet, can't get Wrigley Newark after 1942)

Found this on Familysearch re the SSDI ie Social Security Death Index

This index is a master index file of deaths reported to the Social Security Administration. It has been kept since 1962, when operations were computerized. The index includes about 50 percent of deceased persons from 1962 to 1971 and about 85 percent of the deceased persons from 1972 to 2005. It also includes a few deaths from 1937 to 1961. Current as of September 30, 2012.

Ancestry give this explanation

Who is listed in the SSDI?

This database is an index to basic information about persons with Social Security numbers whose deaths have been reported to the Social Security Administration. The death may have been reported by a survivor requesting benefits. It may have been reported in order to stop Social Security Benefits to the deceased. Funeral homes often report deaths to the SSA as a service to family members. Beginning in 1962, the SSA began to use a computer database for processing requests for benefits. About 98% percent of the people in the SSDI died after 1962, but a few death dates go back as far as 1937. Because legal Aliens in the U.S. can obtain a Social Security card, their names may appear in the SSDI if their deaths were reported. Some 400,000 railroad retirees are also included in the SSDI.

The Social Security Death Index is not an index to all deceased individuals who have held Social Security Numbers. It is not a database of all deceased individuals who have received Social Security Benefits, or whose families have received survivor benefits. (Porter 1999)
..........

So going by FS's description, if your rellies died prior to 1962, they won't be listed on the National data base.
If you wanted official records you're going to have to seek them at State or even County level :-(

Thanks DET

I had already checked the SSDI, and found out that they weren't on there.

It's almost as if they ceased existence after that 1942 City Directory, which was them


Yet I know my mother was receiving letters from Gr Aunt Hannah at least into the early- to mid-1950s

Any idea on Miles Wrigley Death, he looked to go out 1903, did he stay there...

(presume he is Brother, 1901 Belmont Street, as Marriage (John) 1902)

Chris :)

(hoping not to 'rake over old coals' lol, just wondered)

Chris

I hadn't come across a Miles Wrigley before ............. so this is a new one on me.

Hannah (Anna) and John seemed to have lived at 136 New Street from the 1910 Census right up to the 1942 City Directory ................ unfortunately, we didn't keep any of her letters, and I can't remember the address on the 1950s ones.


In fact, I'm still trying to track the "Mrs Jackson, 194 High Street, Newark, sister" that John and Hannah were going to stay with according to the Ellis Island records.

I discovered there was a Samuel Jackson with wife Elizabeth living at that address in 1900 and 1910, immigrated in 1898, last address in the UK was in Bury ................ but I can't seem to find a Samuel Jackson marrying an Elizabeth Wrigley OR Cottrell ...........

However, I haven't done much with the Wrigley side ............. too many John Wrigleys, an uncertain birth date, father named Joseph according to the marriage certificate that doesn't seem to match with any Johns of the right age group .................. you know!!!

New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 (Ancestry)
Miles Wrigley
9 Sep 1903 abt 1873 Liverpool, England English Majestic

(going to join Ann Wrigley (Sister) 194 High Street Newark NJ)

Chris :)


1901 (Mary, witness on Marriage perhaps)
Mary Wrigley Head Single Female 35 1866 Speed Tenter Cotton Mill Lees, Lancashire, England
Miles Wrigley Brother Single Male 28 1873 Iron Workers Labourer Lancashire (Hey Lees), England
John Wrigley Brother Single Male 26 1875 Iron Workers Labourer Yorkshire (Shelderslow), England
Street Belmont Street
Parish Oldham
County Lancashire
Municipal ward Coldhurst
Registration district Oldham
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 3807
Folio 74
Page 19


County Lancashire
Place Werneth
Church St Thomas
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 13 Nov 1902
GroomForename John
GroomSurname Wrigley
GroomAge 28
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Ironworks Labourer
GroomAbode Belmont St. Oldham
BrideForename Hannah
BrideSurname Cottrell
BrideAge 26
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation Laundress
BrideAbode Dundee St. Oldham
GroomFatherForename Joseph
GroomFatherSurname Wrigley
GroomFatherOccupation Spinner
BrideFatherForename Oliver
BrideFatherSurname Cottrell
BrideFatherOccupation Mechanic
WitnessOneForename Charles John Elliot
WitnessOneSurname Barker
WitnessTwoForename Mary
WitnessTwoSurname Wrigley
Notes Superintendant Registrars Certificate

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris .........


you've sent me off on a chase!!!


Yes, Miles was John's brother

Yes, he did go to join them, with the address of 194 High Street, Newark being given

"Ann" Wrigley paid his fare, and "Ann" Wrigley was living at 194 High Street.


I'll have to try to see what happened next.




PLUS ......... I found a tree on ancestry that had Mary, Miles and John, with a father Joseph ....................


but it says they were born in Yorkshire!!

Granted "Saddleworth" is very close to Oldham, but it means I might have been looking in the wrong place for John's exact birth date :-)

Chris .............

thank you ........ I'd just found those records, and copied the information.



and I do have Hannah and John's marriage certificate ........ she was married the day after my grandmother married :-)


I think all 4 of them gave wrong ages on their certificates :-)



The New Jersey records on familysearch are not complete, :-(

it looks as though Miles returned to the UK .........

......... there is a marriage for a Miles Wrigley, Iron Moulder, father Joseph (deceased) on 27 April 1918, to Lily Hall at a church in Hey, Lees ................ the area where he was living before leaving in 1903.

and there is a possible death in 1940 in Ashton, Lancashrie

Jolly good Sylvia, save some work for later, nights look quiet on 'Boards' here now, lol.

(not familiar with those areas, Lancs BMD and OPC about my limit!, still learning)

Chris :)

edits

(not forgetting Yorkshire, and those Ridings!)

Chris

I was born and raised in Oldham, the grammar school I went to had students coming in from Saddleworth and Greenfield, which are officially in Yorkshire, and even after leaving the UK well over 40 years ago, I can still remember many of the place names.


Nights are VERY quiet on the Boards ................ but then so are most of the days :-(


Thank you for your help.

(just adding below, in case 'anything comes of anything', lol, from google search of wrigley shelderslow, came below, perhaps worth keeping in case. IF relating, of course!)

Chris :)


My husbands family tree is as yours, Joseph Wrigley born abt 1830 married Mary Sarah Lawson(Ch 22.2.1835) parents William & Elizabeth Lawson (Coal Merchants) One of the census has incorrectly listed Mary Wrigley as Mary A Wrigley. Mary had 10 children in all Hannah 21.08.1858,Benjamin 07.5.1860,Elizabeth 25.12.1861, Eleanor 12.05.1863, Joseph Hartley 01.10.1864, Mary 14.02.1866,William 20.09.1867, Lucy 26.03.1871 Miles 1873 and John 1875. My husbands line is from Benjamin. These records were taken from documents held by an aged aunt(b.1913) and confirmed. We understand that the family originally descended from William Wrigley (Stone Breaks Mill)but can't tie the connection.

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?o=10&m=7408.4377.4426.6125.2.1&p=localities.britisles.england.yks.general

(from above 2007)


1861 (Find My Past)
Joseph Wrigley Head Married Male 29 1832 Cotton Spinner Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Mary Sarah Wrigley Wife Married Female 25 1836 - Oldham, Lancashire, England
Hannah Wrigley Daughter - Female 2 1859 - Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Ben Wrigley Son - Male 0 1861 - Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Street County End
Parish Saddleworth
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Ecclesiastical district St Johns the Baptist Hey
Registration district Saddleworth
Enumeration district 3
Piece number 3238
Folio number 73
Page number 7


1871 (Find My Past)
Joseph Wrigley Head - Male 38 1833 - Yorkshire, England
Mary Wrigley Wife - Female 36 1835 - Lancashire, England
Hannah Wrigley Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Yorkshire, England
Ben Wrigley Son - Male 10 1861 - Yorkshire, England
Elizabeth Wrigley Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Yorkshire, England
Eleanor Wrigley Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Yorkshire, England
Joseph Wrigley Son - Male 6 1865 - Yorkshire, England
Mary Wrigley Daughter - Female 5 1866 - Yorkshire, England
Lucy Wrigley Daughter - Female 0 1871 - Yorkshire, England
Street Hey And Den Lane
Parish Saddleworth
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Registration district Saddleworth
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 4333
Folio 91
Page 53


1881 (Find My Past)
Mary A Wrigley Head Married Female 46 1835 - Oldham, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Wrigley Son Single Male 20 1861 - Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Elizabeth Wrigley Daughter Single Female 19 1862 Cotton Piecer Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Eleanor Wrigley Daughter Single Female 17 1864 Cotton Reeler Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Joseph H Wrigley Son Single Male 16 1865 Cotton Piecer Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Mary Wrigley Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Cotton Reeler Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
Miles Wrigley Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
John Wrigley Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England
House name Shelderslow
Parish Saddleworth
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Registration district Saddleworth
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 4362
Folio 87
Page 35


1891 (Find My Past)
Mary Wrigley Head Single Female 28 1863 Operative Cotton Lees, Lancashire, England
John Wrigley Brother Single Male 16 1875 Cotton Spinner Lancashire, England (Shelderslow)
Miles Wrigley Brother Single Male 18 1873 Cotton Spinner Lancashire, England (Shelderslow)
Street Ramsden Street
Parish Oldham
City Oldham
County Lancashire
Registration district Oldham
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 3299
Folio 142
Page 58


Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1858
WRIGLEY Hannah Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/14/56

(starts with above, more on below)

http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Baptism: 24 Mar 1878 St John the Baptist, Hey, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Lawson Wrigley - [Child] of Joseph Wrigley & Mary Sarah
Born: 7 May 1860
Abode: Shelderslow
Occupation: Engineer
Baptised by: G. D. Grundy
Register: Baptisms 1842 - 1896, Page 184, Entry 1468
Source: LDS Family Search

Chris posted while I was researching, so much of this is redundant, but...

Check out: http://tinyurl.com/lc2aw94

-----------------

Here's his m.cert
http://tinyurl.com/lfmehr6
I've little doubt his b'day was 15 May, but the year is less certain.
His m.cert indicates 1875 (a=28). I think this is him:

Births Sep 1874 (>99%)
Wrigley John Thomas Saddleworth 9a 262

------------------

1920 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M45L-CTR
Household ID: 101
GS Film number: 1821031 , Digital Folder Number: 004313332 , Image Number: 00651

Magnify 4 clicks, then save image
https://archive.org/stream/14thcensusofpopu1031unit#page/n648/mode/1up
Although crossed out, their pob's were given as York & Manchester.

-------------------

1881 England Census
Civil Parish: Saddleworth
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: Shelderslow
Registration district: Saddleworth
Sub registration district: Delph
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Piece: 4362 Folio: 87 Page Number: 35

Mary A. Wrigley 46 Oldham, Lancashire, England Head M
Benjamin Wrigley 20 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Son
Elizabeth Wrigley 19 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Daughter Cotton Piecer
Eleanor Wrigley 17 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Daughter Cotton Reeler
Joseph H. Wrigley 16 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Son Cotton Piecer
Mary Wrigley 15 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Daughter Cotton Reeler
Miles Wrigley 8 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Son Scholar
John Wrigley 6 Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England Son Scholar

Accessed via http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd:
Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1858q3 WRIGLEY Hannah Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/14/56
1860q2 WRIGLEY Ben Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/15/120
1861[62q1] WRIGLEY Elizabeth Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/16/232
1863q2 WRIGLEY Eleanor Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/17/183
1864q4 WRIGLEY Joseph Hartley Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/18/181
1866q1 WRIGLEY Mary Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/19/161
1867q3 WRIGLEY William Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/20/204
1871q2 WRIGLEY Lucy Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWTON DEL/22/477
1873q1 WRIGLEY Miles Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/24/146
1873q1 WRIGLEY Miles Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/24/147
1874q3 WRIGLEY John Thomas Delph, Saddleworth Oldham LAWSON DEL/25/131
[There's only one Miles in the GRO index - I've checked the image, too. Looks like maybe the transcriber lost his place, and stuffed up with the two Miles's.]

1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VBHR-714


Search Ancestry 1861 for: Piece: 3238; Folio 73; Page 7 to get full details

View Record Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birthplace Relation Residence View Image
View Record Joseph Wrigley Mary Sarah 1832 city, Yorkshire, England relation city, Yorkshire
View Record Mary Sarah Wrigley Joseph 1836 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Yorkshire
View Record Hannah Wrigley Joseph,Mary Sarah 1859 city, Yorkshire, England relation city, Yorkshire
View Record Ben Wrigley Joseph,Mary Sarah 1860 city, Yorkshire, England relation city, Yorkshire

View Record Harriet Wrigley Thomas 1832 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Yorkshire
View Record Thomas Wrigley Harriet 1834 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Yorkshire
View Record Sarah Edna Wrigley Thomas,Harriet 1859 city, Yorkshire, England relation city, Yorkshire
[Thos is on same page - don't know relevance]

Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1859
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WRIGLEY Sarah Edna Delph, Saddleworth Oldham PEAK DEL/14/209

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1856 to 1860 [1857q3]
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WRIGLEY Thomas PEAKE Harriet Ashton under Lyne Civil Marriage Tameside RM/15/64


Maybe:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1857
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WRIGLEY Joseph LAWSON Mary Sarah Prestwich, St.Mary Bury CE18/19/314

http://tinyurl.com/o8anzv8


Deaths Dec 1871 (>99%)
Wrigley Lucy 0 Saddleworth 9a 201

Both of these are feasible:

Yorkshire Death indexes for the years: 1868[q2]
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
WRIGLEY William 0 Delph, Saddleworth Oldham DEL/14/27

Yorkshire Death indexes for the years: 1869[q3]
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
WRIGLEY William 1 Delph, Saddleworth Oldham DEL/14/91

Thank you Chris, and mgnv


these are the censuses I was following last night ...................

but now mgnv has been wondering whether this is the correct family


Yes, John showed Jpseph as his father on his marriage certificate

Yes, Miles Wrigley was one of the witnesses ....................


but my John never ever seems to have called himself John Thomas, on any US census, his marriage certificate, his draft card, etc etc

......... yet that is what mgnv has found for his birth record??

I did see a John Thomas Wrigley, or John T Wrigley, of approximately the right age and birth place, on censuses last night



I wonder .................. could I be dealing with a related family?

ie. Miles being a cousin not a brother


I do know that names can be changed between birth registration and baptism, or later in life :-)

The other discordant note is that John Wrigley described his father's occupation as Spinner on his marriage certificate ..................


and the Joseph of that Saddleworth family is described as a Coal Merchant in 1871



surely, even if Joseph had changed occupations between 1861 and 1871, John would have described him as having the later of the 2 ???




it is a conundrum!!





but I really would like to find their deaths in the US :-)

Deaths Dec 1885 (>99%)
WRIGLEY Mary Sarah 51 Saddleworth 9a 163

Yorkshire Death indexes for the years: 1885
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
WRIGLEY Mary Sarah 51 Delph, Saddleworth Oldham DEL/22/14

This marr would tend to support your other Joh Wrigley hypothesis
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FMYC-1KK
http://tinyurl.com/lu93npb

I don't think Miles could be a 1st cousin to your guy - that would mean their fathers were brothers, but 2 brothers called Joseph seems unlikely - maybe the Josephs were cousins (e.g., both named after, say, their grandad), so Miles is a 2nd cousin?

hmmmmmmmm


interesting mgnv!!


that marriage is on ancestry, and the image is also availabel on there

John Thomas' occupation is Woollen Operative, his age was 20. and his address is Wall Hill

His father's occupation is Weaver



My John was an Ironwork's Labourer, and he was born in 1874-1876, as he was 28 when he married Hannah in 1902



they can't be the same guy!



but there are, in fact, so many Wrigley's in the area :-(




and here is John Thomas in the British Army in WW1


British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 a

Name: John Thomas Wrigley
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1880
Age at Enlistment: 35
Marriage Date: 17 Feb 1900
Marriage Place: Dobcross Yroks
Residence Place: Green Bower Marsden, Nr Huddersfield
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 88072
Regiment Name: Royal Engineers
Number of Images: 13
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Other Records:

Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
John Thomas Wrigley Self (Head)
Lucy Ann Crow Spouse
Samuel Wrigley Child
Jack Wrigley Child
Andrew Wrigley Child
Fred Wrigley Child




I think I'm left trying to find another Wrigley family that had John Wrigely, father Joseph, and possibly a brother Miles as there is no doubt that the Miles who emigrated to the US in 1903 said he was going to his "sister" Ann Wrigley at the same address in Newark that John and Hannah went to 1 year earlier.


I do appreciate that Miles might have exaggerated the relationship



thank you!!

(wakes up, tunes in, lol)

I saw below, wasn't sure about that 2007 posting, of Mary's Father, Coal Merchant, these are on 1841)

Baptism: 22 Feb 1835 St Peter, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mary Sarah Lawson - Daughter of William Lawson & Elizabeth
Abode: Oldham
Occupation: Cabinet Maker
Baptised by: Wm. Winter
Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1837, Page 35, Entry 277
Source: LDS Film 1656068


Marriage: 30 Aug 1857 St Mary the Virgin, Prestwich, Lancashire, England
Joseph Wrigley - (X), 26, Spinner, Bachelor, Greenacres Moor, Oldham
Mary Sarah Lawson - 23, Reeler, Spinster, West Hill, Oldham
Groom's Father: Benjamin Wrigley, Spinner
Bride's Father: William Lawson, Cabinet Maker
Witness: Rachael Atherton, (X); Jane Atherton, (X)
Married by Banns by: Henry Mildred Birch, Rector
Register: Marriages 1856 - 1858, Page 157, Entry 314
Source: LDS Film 2356228


Probate on Ancestry for 1885, but not sure...


Can be sure though that 1901 posted earlier is right, as Belmont Street is same on 1902 Marriage, with his sister Mary a witness. (not found her yet 1911)

Chris :)

(but, no answer to finding Deaths, or returning to UK of Miles, not seeing him 1911 here, or 1910 there, yet!)

edits

(from Probate)
Administration of the Personal Estate of Mary Sarah Wrigley (Wife of Joseph Wrigley) late of Shelderslow Saddleworth York Died 2 December 1885 was granted to the said Joseph Wrigley of 10 Back castle Mill Street Oldham Engineer. Personal Estate £166 13s 4d

Hi Chris

you know ............ I looked for probate for Joseph, but not for Mary

Doh!


that's quite a bit of money she left for those days, especially for a woman! It much have come from her father.


yes, the 1901 is correct ......... and so probably is that 1891 Census for Mary, Miles and John that you posted.


Back to searching to see if I can find them earlier.



Many thanks xx


it's a bright frosty morning here :-)