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After four years of searching I have finally found James John Drake's birth certificate. I ordered every one there was under this name, and none were correct.

Tried a different approach and found he was registered as William James Drake, St Pancras, London, born 23 January 1864. Using this name I have finally found out his death year of 1941 in St Pancras, London.

Talk about a "wild goose chase", or in this case a "wild duck chase".

Just shows. you need to persevere and think outside the square.

Thanks for that Kath.
On my mother's birth certificate her mother shows herself ' formerly of' an address near the workhouse.
I shall follow up your suggestion ... interesting.

David

Just because your mother was born in the workhouse doesn't mean that they lived there. Workhouse infirmaries were used as maternity hospitals and general hospitals in those days - remember there was no NHS and most people couldn't afford to see a doctor.

If you look at "www.workhouses.org" and put in the name of the workhouse where she was born and then scroll to the bottom of the page that comes up it should tell you where any records that survive are kept. If the admission and discharge registers have survived then they should tell you when your grandmother was admitted and when she was discharged and also where she lived at the time.

Yes, we are well off these days. My grandfather was born in a workhouse and my grandmother ended up living in one when she was disowned by her family when she became pregnant when she was single. It was a hard life in those days!!

Kath. x

I got my mother's ( Alice Drake ) birth certificate today and it shows that her mother was Annie Sweeney so she was the last of her children, not the first of the second Annie's. It also confirms that she was born in the Workhouse. It doesn't say it in so many words but the address shown turns out to be just that. I think maybe, if asked, I shall say that my mother was born in a really big house in Islington :-)
I now want to find some way of knowing how long they were in there if that's possible because the family - growing steadily all the time- appear safe and sound by the time the 1911 census is taken.

One last question remains... " Do we all realise just how well off we are today ?" :-D

Just in case it helps the jigsaw...
My mother told me that her mother's maiden name was Smith.
My mother b 1905- 1988 seems to have been the first of James' children with Smith shown as the mother's maiden name.
Her younger siblings were: Catherine ( married name Mays ) b.1907, John James b.1909, Louisa ( married name Corthine ) b.1912 and James b. 1913.
I knew all of these people quite well. Not sure of dates of death except that Catherine died of cancer in 1949 and Louisa died 1979 in Romford

My mother's older siblings were: William 1892 - 1959 ( grandfather of Sue57 ),
Francis 1897 - 1916 and Ernest 1900 -1950.
I think that Francis was killed in WW1

I knew Ernest and know that he was single until some time just after the end of WW2 so he is bound to l be the Ernest living with his parents just before and after the war.

Thanks everyone for the continued interest.
David Fright

Thank you Mavis, this is looking very promising as she did have a daughter in 1906/7 called Catherine.

Sue

been having a search around -- think this is the John Smith 28y in 1911 living
with the Drake family -- this is a Marriage


Name:
John Smith

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1884

Age:
28

Spouse:
Betsy Matilda Trench

Spouse Age:
28

Record Type:
Marriage

Event Date:
26 May 1912

Parish:
All Saints, Walworth

Borough:
Southwark

Father Name:
Thomas Smith dec. Bricklayer

Spouse Father:
John Trench

witnesses James Drake and Cha---- Trench
-----------------------------------------------------------------

1891 Census 7 Kelso Place - Marylebone

Thomas Smith 38y Bricklayers Lab. born Marylebone
Margaret Smith 37y Laundress born Marylebone
John Smith 7y ------------------- born Marylebone

could Annie Smith be perhaps be a half sister to John ?? could Thomas
have had an earlier partner I did find this in 1881

1881 19 Orcus St Marylebone

Thomas Smith 28y General Labour born Marylebone
Catherine Smith 25y washer woman born Hampstead Middlesex
Annie Smith 4y ------------------------- born Marylebone

age for Annie slightly out and she did -- if her -- have a daughter Catherine

could some one who is better at sorting this sort of thing out have a go at
proving or disproving this

Mavis

I've just looked up Agar Street and it is quite near where they were living earlier - Catherine Street, off Aldwych. What a coincidence that they should move to Agar Grove which is quite a distance away.

ello again
I agree about Electoral Rolls: I clearly remember my Grandad James John Drake living at 75 Agar Grove around 1942. I don't think that Grandma was still alive then. Number 75 is no longer there, it was next to the railway just North of St Pancras. I'd love to live there now and be able to stroll down to catch the Eurostar to Paris.
We had been bombed out in Islington and moved in with them for a while until we moved to Finsbury Park. My Auntie Lou ( Drake ) was by then married to Albert Corthine and lived in the same house as us at Finsbury Park. My uncle John Drake was then in The Army Physical Training Corps and my Uncle Ernie was also in the army, I remember him coming back from Africa and being demobbed some time during the Blitz. My mother was Alice Drake. Catherine Drake married Robert Mays and she died of cancer around 1947
I too, have been trying to solve the riddle of the Annie Smiths of this world and can't think of a more common name at that time. I vaguely remember my mother saying that she thought her mother came from Ireland but the Annie Drake ten years younger than James is shown in 1911 census as coming from London. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that it was a case of one Annie out and another Annie in, with or without a marriage.BUT I am still searching. I am waiting for delivery of my mother's birth certificate hoping for a bit more information than is shown on the workhouse record.

From page one of this thread

Hi
He was my maternal Grandad. I have memories of him when he lived in Camden Town during WW2. He was an orthopedic bootmaker.
Looking for any info at all about him.
Thank you
David Fright

David was born in 1933

Are you sure he can't be the James John Drake who died in 1936 in Paddington.

Jacqueline - thank you. There doesn't appear to be a marriage and there were 3 Annie Smiths born in that area in the same year.

ChristinaS - thank you. That is very helpful as I knew they lived in Bemmerton Street because my Dad and his family moved into this street a few doors up from his grandparents. I was also aware that they lived in Camden. The children's names fit and they did have a son called John. I wonder where James John was, hopefully not in prison again!

The Electoral Rolls are confusing, as they don't tie in with family memories.

From 1922 - 1936 James John Drake is living at 173 Bemerton Street, with Annie, and Ernest John. Also with them at that address, at various times, are Catherine Grace, William James and Louisa.

In 1937 & 1938 - Annie Drake, John, Ernest John and William James. (No mention of Louisa. And is James John now calling himself John, or is this someone else)

1939 - 74 Agar Street, Camden - Annie Drake, Ernest and William James Drake

Look on freebmd for the second 'marriage'.....if there was one, the cert will name her father

If they didn't marry, you're probably not going to get much further, with such a common name

You could try looking for her in 1881.......if her birth info as recorded on the 1911 census is accurate, you may find something

https://familysearch.org/

David Fright and I have been trying to find out more about a second wife of James John Drake.

The first wife was Annie Sweeney and we think the second wife is Annie Smith.
We don't know what happened to Annie Sweeney but something obviously did around 1904/1906. In the 1911 Census, marriage length and dates and ages don't match up with the old Annie.

I have noticed on Ancestry (which I don't have a subscription to) that all the family trees for Drake mention Annie Sweeney except one.

drake tree
Annie Smith
B 1874
M
Spouse James John ________

Is anyone able to look this up to see what further information they may have on Annie Smith as it has been a huge brickwall for us.

My father always said there were two wives and it is looking like he was right, that the later children had Annie Smith as their mother.

Thanks
Sue

Jacqueline, great that confirms what I have been told but it doesn't mention Wormwood Scrubs - maybe they moved him there during his Pentonville one. It's pretty bad that at 17 you have a previous conviction as well. Hope he is the only "black sheep" in the family.

Thanks very much.

Sue

First name(s) James
Last name Drake
Age 25
Occupation Bootmaker
Birth year 1864
Year 1889
Session commencing day 04
Session commencing month Nov
Place London
Court Clerkenwell
Victim's first name(s)/alias Alfred John
Victim's last name Carne
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace - November

MALICIOUS WOUNDING. Sentenced to 18 months in Pentonville


First name(s) James
Last name Drake
Age 17
Occupation Shoemaker
Birth year 1864
Year 1881
Session commencing day 21
Session commencing month Feb
Place Middlesex
Court Clerkenwell
Victim's first name(s)/alias Frederick
Victim's last name Milson
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The Adjourned General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace - February

STEALING A PAIR OF BOOTS. Also had a previous conviction (unspecified)

Mavis,

Thank you so much, that was the only census I couldn't find. I thought he was in Pentonville at the time. So that makes it the third prison stay and of course I didn't look it up as "Jas". I wonder what he did that time and how long he was in for. He'd already been in Coldbath Fields Prison.

Sue

In 1891 census --Wormwoodscrubs prison - Hammersmith

Jas' Drake married - 27y [1864] Shoemaker born St Pancras

Mavis

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