Find Ancestors

Can be very surprising what turns up in Newspapers, always worth a look!.

Apart from Find My Past, and Genes, there is below, subscription also needed.

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/


Chris :)

(MC, your use of 'Keepsafe', comes in handy, lol, sends a Thankyou to you)

13 September 1912 - Sheffield Evening Telegraph - Sheffield, South Yorkshire

MAN KILLS WOMAN HE WAS FOND OF

(By our private wire)

Frederick Hartop, 42, glass serverer, a man of excellent character, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to-day to the manslaughter of Ellen Ford, the woman whom he had lived for 18 years.
The evidence was to the effect that the prisoner and the deceased, who lived at Bow, had a quarrel, and the man hit her in the ribs with his fist. The result was that three ribs were fractured, and as the direct result of the blow she died in hospital two days later.
It was stated that the prisoner was deeply attached to the deceased. and the judge said that her loss would be a great and abiding grief to him. His Lordship sentenced prisoner to four months in the second division.

---------------------------------------------------------------

They lived in "Ford Road" so I think that is the muddle as to her name being stated as Ellen "Ford".

Prickles.

Hello Nicola

The manslaughter would have been very widely reported, it just so happens that those Scottish newspapers are the ones that have so far made their way into the British Newspaper Archive.

If Hartopp had killed another man he would probably have got much longer but an ordinary woman's life back then held much less value.

Here's a link to the full article in the Dundee Courier:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/17248652

and another brief one in the Leicester Chronicle 4 Sep 1912:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/17248654

I have search the newspaper article that Chris found but can't view the whole page.
Does anyone have access to 07 September 1912 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland ? Also wondering why it was reported in a Scottish paper when the manslaughter took place in London?
I recently found a ancestor who was jailed for 1 year for stealing a horse in 1921, how on earth did this man get the same for killing his wife!!!

I am lost for words... Not what I was expecting when I set out to find something to talk about with uncle John.
After my conversation with him on tuesday, It all makes a lot of sense that his mother was very protective of John and siblings. I will spare him this info on my next visit, he clearly knows very little about his mothers family and it will have to stay that way.
Thanks all for the research I will record it all and share it with his son one day.
Maybe researching his father Arthur Marsh will hopefully provide a more pleasant conversation.

Gosh!!

I had to read back the last posts a few times for it all to sink in.

How terribly sad for poor Ellen.....and how very devastating for her children. :-\

omg what an outcome

Ellen was Nicola's Uncle John's grandmother? how awfully sad

'Prisoner bore an excellent general character and had been kind to his wife except when in drink.'

yes, that is always the sign of 'an excellent general character' ... being a drunk who beat his wife

alcoholism is an awful thing ... often most awful for the wife and children of the alcoholic, a situation in which they were all too commonly trapped in those days

BTW ............... the original on the Old Bailey site does say Frederick was a glass silverer ..... which fits with the 1901 and 1911 censuses.

Burial Register summary

Hartopp Frederick
Burial date 16 April 1925
Authority Manor Park
Location Manor Park Cemetery (Newham)


https://www.deceasedonline.com/

Chris :)

?????????? Frederick's death


England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: Frederick Hartopp
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jun 1925
Age at Death: 54
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 103

http://www.blackkalendar.nl/content.php?key=10595


Frederick Hartop (Jail)

Age: 42 (43 after sentence)

Sex: male

Crime: manslaughter

Date Of Sentence: 10 Sep 1912 (for 1 years)

End Of Full Sentence: 10 Jan 1913

Place: unknown

Source: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19120910-70-of

HARTOP, Frederick (42, glass severer), was indicted for and charged on Coroner's inquisition with the manslaughter of Ellen Hartop.

Prisoner pleaded guilty.

On September 1 prisoner, during a drunken quarrel, struck deceased (with whom he had lived for 18 years and who had eight children by him) a violent blow; she had three ribs fractured and died two days afterwards. The post mortem examination showed that all the woman's organs were healthy except the lungs; the ribs having been broken had penetrated into the pleura; there was blood in the pleural cavity; this had set up an acute stage of bronchial pneumonia; death had no doubt been accelerated by the fracture of the ribs. Prisoner bore an excellent general character and had been kind to his wife except when in drink.

Sentence: Four months' imprisonment, second division.

Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 7.0, 24 December 2012), September 1912, trial of HARTOP, Frederick (42, glass severer) (t19120910-70).

Marriages Sep 1883 (>99)
-------------------------------------------------------------
LARK Mary St. Saviour 1d 13
Shepherd George Henry St. Saviour 1d 13

(Sister of Ellen above, from below old 'Thread')

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/trying_to_find/thread/1093403

Chris :)


MANSLAUGHTER CHARGE AGAINST HUSBAND.

“... returned against Frederick Hartopp by a Coroner's jury at the London Hospital, where an inquest was held on the man's wife Ellen Hartopp. of Ford Road, Bow. Maud Towke said deceased was her mother, who had twice been married. On Saturday last, shortly after ...”

07 September 1912 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland


Deaths Sep 1912 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
HARTOP Ellen 47 Whitechapel 1c 289


(noticed below)

Burial
County Norfolk
Place Great Yarmouth
Church St Nicholas
RegisterNumber 1292
BurialDate 27 Jan 1890
Forename William George
Surname FOWKE
Age 1y3m
Abode Row


http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl


Births Dec 1888 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
FOWKE William George Poplar 1c 666


Deaths Mar 1890 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
Fowke William George 1 Yarmouth 4b 2

Ellen Lark in the 1881 England Census
Name:Ellen Lark
Age:17
Estimated birth year:abt 1864
Relationship to Head:Servant (Employee)
Gender:Female
Where born:Yarmouth
Civil Parish:Newington
County/Island:London
Country:England
Street address:8 Grosvenor Place
Occupation:Servant Domestic
Registration district:St Saviour Southwark
Sub registration district:St Peter Walworth

Household Members

George Hook 56
M.A. Hook 22
Ellen Lark 17
(not transcribed)


??

Ellen Lark in the 1871 England Census
Name:Ellen Lark
Age:6
Estimated birth year:abt 1865
Relation:Daughter (Child)
Father's name:William Lark
Mother's name:Ellen Lark
Gender:Female
Civil Parish:St Georges Ward
Ecclesiastical parish:Norwich
County/Island:Norfolk
Country:England
Registration district:Yarmouth
Sub-registration district:Yarmouth Southern

Household Members:

William Lark 42 (Fish Monger)
Ellen Lark 32
Hannah Lark 12
Edgar Lark 11
Mary Lark 7
Ellen Lark 6
Pheba Lark 5
Barbara Lark 2
Jane Lark 4 Years, 1 Month

stupid me, it didn't dawn on me that the Ellen Hartopp in the 1911 census I posted at the start of all that was Ethel Maud's mother Ellen!

certainly that was she; not at all an unusual situation, where a woman and her children are living with a man (and sometimes his children) and the census shows them as unrelated as in the 1901 census posted

they may well have represented themselves socially as a married couple ... as this couple were doing in the census by 1911 :-)

Wow, thanks everyone, will take awhile to go through all this info.
I am very grateful for all your efforts.

Brother Frederick married in 1910......

Frederick W Fowke in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name:Frederick W Fowke
Registration Year:1910
Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district:Bethnal Green
Inferred County:London
Volume:1c
Page:417

Records on Page:
Name: Clara L Cooper


Frederick Fowke in the 1911 England Census
Name:Frederick Fowke
Age in 1911:28
Estimated birth year:abt 1883
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Male
Birth Place:London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish:Bethnal Green
County/Island:London
Country:England
Street address:
29 Turin Street, Bethnal Green Road, London E
Marital Status:Married
Occupation:PRINTERS PORTER
Registration district:Bethnal Green

Frederick Fowke Head 1883 28 Married PRINTERS PORTER
Clara Fowke Wife 1883 28 Married London
Lottie Cooper Sister 1890 21 FRENCH POLISHERS London
Ada Cooper Sister 1892 19 FRENCH POLISHERS London
Maud Cooper Sister 1895 16 NEEDLE WORKER London
Herbert Cooper Brother 1898 13 Single SCHOOL London
Florrie Cooper Sister 1902 9 Single SCHOOL London
Lily Cooper Sister 1904 7 Single SCHOOL London Frederick George Fowke Son 1911 0 Single London


Frederick William Fowke in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name:Frederick William Fowke
Gender:Male
Birth Date:abt 1884
Marriage Date:1 Oct 1910
Marriage Place:Bethnal Green
Age:31
Document Year:1915
Residence Place:27 Turin St, Bethnal Green <<<<<<<<
Regimental Number:26532
Regiment Name:Army Veterinary Corps
Form Title:Short Service Attestation
Number of Images:18

Family Members:


Name

Relation to Soldier

Frederick William Fowke Self (Head)
Clara Lucy Cooper Spouse
Frederick George Fowke Child


Frederick W Fowke in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
Name:Frederick W Fowke
Birth Date:abt 1884
Date of Registration:Jun 1931
Age at Death:47
Registration district:Bethnal Green
Inferred County:London
Volume:1c
Page:93


Clara Lucy Fowke in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
Name:Clara Lucy Fowke
Birth Date:14 Jan 1883
Date of Registration:Dec 1976
Age at Death:93
Registration district:Croydon
Inferred County:Surrey
Volume:11
Page:1738

Sarah Ann was placed in School in 1886

Sarah Fowke in the London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911
Name:Sarah Fowke
Age:6
Birth Date:1 Oct 1886
School:Roman Road School
Borough:Tower Hamlets
Admission Date:28 Aug 1893
Parent:Frederick ....87 St Stephens Road <<<<<
Notes:
Roman Road School (0416) opened in 1877. Renamed Roman Primary School and Bow Secondary Girls School in 1951
Reference Number:LCC/EO/DIV05/ROM/AD/002

She was admitted to the workhouse by Brother Frederick in 1913.....

Sarah Ann Fowke in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1659-1930
Name:Sarah Ann Fowke
Birth Date:1886
Admission Age:26
Admission Date:1912-1914
Record Type:Admission
Borough:Camden
Parish or Poor Law Union:St Pancras
Place:London, England
Title:St Pancras Workhouse Register, 1912-1914

Sarah Ann Fowke born 1886 Single...Restaurant Bar Hand

Date of admission:27/01/1913

Name and Address of nearest known relative or friend: Brother Frederick ...29 Turin St, Bethnal Green.

Frederick with wife Emily in 1891.....

Frederich Fowke in the 1891 England Census

Name:
Frederich Fowke
[Frederick Fowke]
Age:25
Estimated birth year:abt 1866
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Emily Fowke
Gender:Male
Where born:Bethnal Green, London, England
Civil Parish:Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish:St Barnabus
Town:London
County/Island:London
Country:England

Household Members:

Frederich Fowke 25 (Fish Porter)
Emily Fowke 23 Bethnal Green


Frederick Fowke in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name:Frederick Fowke
Registration Year:1865
Registration Quarter:Apr-May-Jun
Registration district:Bethnal Green
Inferred County:London
Volume:1C
Page:282


Frederick Fowke in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
Name:Frederick Fowke
Estimated birth year:abt 1865
Registration Year:1893
Registration Quarter:Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death:28
Registration district:Bethnal Green
Inferred County:London
Volume:1c
Page:175

Frederick & Ellen separated and he went on to marry



Name:Frederick Fowke Fish porter

Estimated birth year:abt 1866

Age:24

Spouse:Emily Fordham

Spouse Age:23

Record Type:Marriage

Event Date:24 Mar 1890

Parish:St Mark, Victoria Park

Borough:Tower Hamlets

Father Name:George Fowke Fish salesman

Spouse Father:Richard Fordham Dock labourer

Register Type:Parish Register
-----------------------------------------------------

His baptism



Name:Frederic Fowke

Record Type:Baptism

Baptism Date:4 Jun 1865

Father's name:George Fowke Fish monger

Mother's name:Harriet Fowke

Parish or Poor Law Union:Bethnal Green St Matthias

Borough:Tower Hamlets

Register Type:Parish Registers

That is definitely Ethel Maud.........as Maud Fowke on the 1911 census that Joonie posted.

Street address:
114 Ford Road, Old Ford, Bow

Frederick Hartopp Head 1869 42 Married PLATE GLASS SILVERER Middlesex, England
Ellen Hartopp Wife 1868 43 Married County of Surrey
Robert Hartopp Son 1895 16 Single BRUSH MAKER Middlesex
Charles Hartopp Son 1897 14 SCHOOL Middlesex, England
Elsie Hartopp Daughter 1899 12 SCHOOL Middlesex
Hilda Hartopp Daughter 1901 10 SCHOOL Middlesex
Jessie Hartopp Daughter 1903 8 SCHOOL Middlesex
Harry Hartopp Son 1898 13 SCHOOL Middlesex, England
George Hartopp Son 1905 6 SCHOOL Middlesex
Phillis Hartopp Daughter 1909 2 Middlesex
Maud Fowke Boarder 1893 18 Single CHOCOLATE MANUF

(States.......Frederick and Ellen have been married 17 years.......8 children born and living)


Odd because Frederick Hartopp claims to be a Widower in 1901......

(His age is out!)

99 Ford Road

Frederick Hartop in the 1901 England Census
Name:Frederick Hartop
Age:29
Estimated birth year:abt 1872
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Male
Birth Place:Bethnal Green, London, England
Civil Parish:St Mary Stratford Bow
Ecclesiastical parish:St Paul
County/Island:London
Country:England

Frederick Hartop Head 29 1872 Bethnal Green (Widower) Plate Glass Silverer
Robert Hartop Son 6 1895 Old Ford, London
Charles Hartop Son 4 1897 Old Ford, London
Henry Hartop Son 2 1899 Old Ford, London
Elsie E Hartop Daughter 2 1899 Old Ford, London
Ellen Lark Boarder 35 1866 Yarmouth, Norfolk, England (Single) Living on Own Means.
Frederick Fowke Boarder 19 1882 Stepney, London, England
Sarah Fowke Boarder 14 1887 Female Rotherhithe, London

Note that Boarder Ellen Lark was born Yarmouth, Norfolk which is where Frederick Fowke's wife Ellen was born!

So is Ellen Lark the mother of boarders Frederick and Sarah Fowke?

Annoying that it states that wife Ellen Hartopp was born in the County of Surrey on the 1911 census.

I have to go out so will pop back on here later.

Prickles.