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Thanks very much mgnv, appreciate the info.

Will pursue other family branches for now until i exhaust the on-line stuff, then revert to records office as you suggest.

Regards

Peter

Wm says his pob=Kingswinford (1881) and Hambleroot (1871) - I'm wondering if the latter is a misspelling & mistranscription of the modern Amblecote.

Lewis (1850) says:
AMBLECOAT, a hamlet, in the parish of Old Swinford, union of Stourbridge, S. division of the hundred of Seisdon and of the county of Stafford, ½ a mile (N.) from Stourbridge
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-dict/england



Usually, the only English records that name parent-son relationships are, for 1837q3 on, m.certs (which name bride & grooms' fathers), and b.certs (which fully name both parents (pre-1876, when rego'ed)). Baptisms usually give the parents full married names only, although 19th cent Co Durham does, not too infrequently, also give the mum's maiden surname. One might get some info from banns and will records, and from the census.

If you decide to buy any civil bmd.certs, then your best bet is to use the GRO.
You can do this online via: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
They take credit cards - the price is 9.25 GBP (incl postage), and your credit card co will convert this into rands (at a mildly unfavourable rate) and stick it on your bill.

The other official sites you can use are the local rego office that now holds the original B/D rego's; they also hold the registrar's own M rego's, and copies of the church M rego's.
One can also buy m.certs from the issuing parish church if the marr is in their current rego - old rego's are usually deposited in the local records office.
All 3 official sources have similar prices.

One can get various commercial companies to place the order for you, but this will more than double the cost to you.



Incidentally, the witnesses on a marr are usually sibs or sibs-in-law of the couple.



If you want to see some examples of pre-1969q2 English civil bmd.certs, there's an annotated example of each near the end of:
http://tinyurl.com/lrk36xp

Hi Chris and friends,

What is the best method of tracing "parents" it seems none of the records shown on the various sites show who the parents are.

I cant get anywhere with Williams parents;

Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Wm Corbett Lodger Head Married Male 27 1854 Ironworker Staffordshire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Corbett Wife Married Female 28 1853 - Staffordshire, England
Transcription
John H Corbett Son Single Male 6 1875 - Tudhoe, Durham, England
Transcription
Alfred Corbett Son Single Male 4 1877 - Tudhoe, Durham, England
Transcription
William Corbett Son Single Male 3 1878 - Tudhoe, Durham, England
Transcription
Ellen Corbett Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - Staffordshire, England

Hi Chris,

Thank you, this is what we agree. The grave is in Spennymoor Cemetery.

Cemetery: Tudhoe Grave Number: 83
Section: G Burial Number: 5894
Deceased Forename: Elizabeth Day of Burial: 11
Deceased Initial: Month of Burial: 3
Deceased Surname: Hart Year of Burial: 1925

I am still not sure about Henry. In the 1901 census Eliz. is listed as Wife Married, but Henry is not listed.
In the 1911 census she is listed as Widow so Henry must have died in the intervening years i.e.

Deaths Jun 1903 (>99%)
Hart Henry 60 Auckland 10a 111
Deaths Mar 1925 (>99%)
Hart Elizabeth 72 Sedgefield 10a 255

This is what you proposed in your earlier post - this is what I am confused about.

Peter

Apologies Peter, not meaning to confuse!.

mgnv has found another Death for Elizabeth, that could be a better match...

Chris :)

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Sorry I am now confused.

(glad you checked mgnv, 'L plates' on here with areas 'up there', lol, apologies)

Chris :)

I disagree with Chris's death for Eliz - my pick is just below

Deaths Jun 1903 (>99%)
Hart Henry 60 Auckland 10a 111

Deaths Mar 1919 (>99%)
Corbett Albert 28 Durham 10a 645

Deaths Mar 1925 (>99%)
Hart Elizabeth 72 Sedgefield 10a 255

I can only find one Henry of the right age in 1891:
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birthplace Relation Residence View Image
Henry Hart abt 1843 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Durham
Alice B Hart [Alice A Hart] Henry abt 1875 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Durham
Martha E Hart Henry abt 1880 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Durham
[rg12/4056/132/34]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WJ8R-3MM
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WJ8R-Z2M


1881 - Ferry Hill, Durham, England
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3R8-JXK
Henry Hart Head M 38 , Lancashire, England
Barbara Hart Wife F 38 Hartly, Northumberland, England
John Hart Son M 16 , Lancashire, England
Alice Ann Hart Daughter F 6 , Lancashire, England
[Ancestry's h/h also includes:
Martha C. Hart Daughter F 1 , Lancashire, England
Presumably, Barb has pob=Hartley:
HARTLEY, a township, in the parish of Earsdon, union of Tynemouth [Lewis (1848)]]

Births Sep 1842 (>99%)
Hedley Barbara Tynemouth 25 386

Deaths Mar 1891 (>99%)
Hart Barbara 48 Stockton 10a 81

Using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ and http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1864 HEDLEY John Hindley Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY HNDL/30/196
1870 HART William Hindley Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY HNDL/42/419
1873 HART Henry Hindley Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY HNDL/48/424
1874 HART Alice Ann Ashton Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY ASHT/19/407
1877 HART William Hindley Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY HNDL/60/341
1879 HART Martha Ellen Ashton Wigan & Leigh HEDLEY ASHT/23/360

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1867
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HART Henry HEDLEY Barbara Christ Church, Ince Wigan & Leigh C19/1/183

Marriage: 9 Nov 1867 Christ Church, Ince, Lancs.
Henry Hart - (X), 25, Collier, Bachelor, Broom Street
Barbara Hedley - 25, Spinster, Ince Green Lane
Groom's Father: William Hart, Labourer
Bride's Father: Lanclott Hedley, Underlooker
Witness: Thomas Rutter; Alice Hedley
Married by Banns by: David Williams Curate
Register: Marriages 1864 - 1872, Page 92, Entry 183
Source: Original Register at Wigan Archives

I can only find one Wigan birth of the right age for Henry:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1843
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HART Henry Aspull Wigan & Leigh RHUDD ASPL/4/168

Marriage: 1 Feb 1841 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
James Hart - (X), 28 Miner Bachelor of Aspull
Ann Rudd - (X), 30 Weaver Spinster of Ince
Groom's Father: John Hart, Labourer
Bride's Father: William Rudd, Weaver
Witness: John Taylor; Edward Smallshaw
Married by Banns by: Charles Bisset Curate
Register: Marriages 1840 - 1842, Page 59, Entry 118
Source: LDS Film 1885694

But Aspull's not Ince, and the dad's forename is wrong for our Henry, so I guess our Henry's birth wasn't rego'ed.


It looks like both Barb's sons Wm died, so I wanted a bit more info on the d.o.b.
Now there's multiple births of Wm Hart, so to pin down ours, I checked the local indexes of some of the other names on each William Cave birth pages.
The GRO has 10 B & D entries per page - the local register has 5 entries per page, so any pair of entries on the GRO page must be within 2 local pages or 10 entries of each other.
Most local refs have 3 elements:
1) a subdistrict code (or church/registrar code for marrs);
2) a register sequence number (numbered within the subdistrict/church code);
3) a page or entry # = entry #s are usually used for marrs, so one knows who wed whom. B,D, and church rego's have 500 entries per rego - the registrar's marr rego can have 200 entries.
[As you saw the last element of the Hart-Hedley births always exceeded 100, so the Wigan & Leigh local ref can't be using page #s - they must be entry #s.]

Here's a subset of the 10 names on the same GRO index page, with the local ref appended.
This confirms I've got the Hart-Hedley Wm.


Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
HALLIWELL Alice Wigan 8c 85 HNDL/42/428
Hardman Alice Wigan 8c 85 HNDL/42/423
HART William Wigan 8c 85 HNDL/42/419

Deaths Mar 1871 (>99%)
Hart William 0 Wigan 8c 54

Births Sep 1877 (>99%)
HARMSWORTH Henry Wigan 8c 78 HNDL/60/339
HART William Wigan 8c 78 HNDL/60/341
HOPE Catherine Wigan 8c 78 HNDL/60/347

Deaths Mar 1878 (>99%)
HART William 0 Wigan 8c 50

Deaths Jun 1878 (>99%)
HART William 1 Wigan 8c 28
"""""""""""""""""""""
Hart William 14 mo Seven Stars Bridge, Wallgate 27-May 1878 D 372 * C of E
[a=14m, so not this one]
http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/cemetery.php?opt=cemetery


Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Religion
Hart William 6 mo Albert St. Ince 05-Mar 1871 son of Henry B 167 * C of E
Hart Mary 3 mo Albert St. Ince 22-Jul 1873 dau of Henry B 341 * C of E
http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/incecemetery.php?opt=incecemetery
[date is date of burial]

Always worth a search on 'google' Peter, can be surprising what comes up, relating to Ancestors, or Family History as a whole!.


Deaths Mar 1925 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Hart Elizabeth 73 Newcastle T. 10b 82

(above looks to be her, using below)

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Chris :)

Hi Chris,
Thank you so much for finding this thread. I had the Albert Hart record already and have sent away for the photo's and any other information.
The reason I started this quest to find my family history was a recent visit to the UK from my home here in South Africa. During the visit I took my kids to Spennymoor - the town of my birth - we went to the Cemetery (above) because I knew my Grandmother was buried there and my kids were intrigued. During a subsequent discussion with them we decided to investigate the family history. Its ironic that I was actually there just 4 weeks ago and was completely unaware of these graves and the connection with my family i.e. Elizabeth Hart/Corbett/Wainwright my Great Grandmother. This is the grave of my Grandmother. Now with this link you have given me I now find my Grandfather William is also buried here in a separate grave - he committed suicide so I guess she didn't want to be buried in the same grave?
Anyway sorry about the ramble, but it is exciting! And that you once again.

Grave Register Entry

Cemetery: Tudhoe Grave Number: 83
Section: G Burial Number: 5894
Deceased Forename: Elizabeth Day of Burial: 11
Deceased Initial: Month of Burial: 3
Deceased Surname: Hart Year of Burial: 1925


Cemetery: Tudhoe Grave Number: 347
Section: C Burial Number: 2005
Deceased Forename: Henry Day of Burial: 28
Deceased Initial: Month of Burial: 4
Deceased Surname: Hart Year of Burial: 1903

https://www.townswebarchiving.com/SpennymoorSearch/

(worth a look on above link)


Hart, Albert Corbett
Spennymoor (Tudhoe) Cemetery - Hart, Albert Corbett
Cemetery: Spennymoor (Tudhoe) Cemetery
Country: England
Area: Durham
Rank: Private
Force: Army
Nationality: British
Details: 15th January 1919
Son of Elizabeth Hart

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=1270837

Chris :)

This puts Henry at the right age when born, and in the right County.

But from here I am out of my depth and experience.


Henry Hart
England and Wales Census, 1861
Name Henry Hart
County Durham
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Sub-District 2 Gateshead
Parish Gateshead
Ecclesiastical Parish St Marys
Registration District Gateshead
Age 18
Gender Male
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birthplace Ireland
Schedule Type Household

Also the 1911 census shows Elizabeth Hart as a widow ?

I found this, but could not find any link to verify.

Henry Hart
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
Name Henry Hart
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1903
Registration District Auckland
County Durham
Event Place Auckland, Durham, England
Age (available after 1866) 60
Birth Year (Estimated) 1843
Volume 10A
Page 111
Line Number 274

Yes, I was looking for Henry Hart but couldn't find anything definite.

I am now struggling to find Henry Hart's death details. In the 1901 census Elizabeth is shown as "wife" but Henry is not listed. Where was he? were they still married. What is the best source of deaths?

Peter

England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription
Print transcription View image Attach to tree
First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name CORBETT
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1892
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ ELIZABETH CORBETT married one of these people
JONATHAN BRAITHWAITE,>> HENRY HART<<
District DURHAM
District number -
County Durham
Country England
Volume 10A
Page 559

Thank you so much Chris and alviegal, this thread has helped me so much.

Peter

1861 (Find My Past)
William Wainwright Head Married Male 45 1816 Puddler Staffordshire, England
Ellen Wainwright Wife Married Female 43 1818 - Old Swinford, Worcestershire, England
Hannah Wainwright Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1845 - Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Isaac Wainwright Son - Male 10 1851 Scholar Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Elizabeth Wainwright Daughter - Female 8 1853 Scholar Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Isaiah Wainwright Son - Male 5 1856 Scholar Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Richard Wainwright Son - Male 3 1858 Scholar Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Mary Wainwright Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Kingswinford, Staffordshire, England
Street Belle Vue
Parish Kingswinford
County Worcestershire
Ecclesiastical district Wordsley
Registration district Stourbridge
Enumeration district 3
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 2069
Folio number 72
Page number 40

Chris :)

West Midlands Birth indexes for the years: 1852

WAINWRIGHT Elizabeth Kingswinford Dudley Register Office KIN/032/301


West Midlands Birth indexes for the years: 1844

WAINWRIGHT Hannah Kingswinford Dudley Register Office KIN/014/26

http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/index.php


England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription (Find My Past) (a possible)

First name(s) William
Last name Wainwright
Marriage year 1833
Marriage date 03 Nov 1833
Marriage place Old Swinford,Worcester,England
Spouse's first name(s) Ellen
Spouse's last name Bullock
Place Old Swinford
County Worcestershire


1841
William Wainwright Male 25 1816 (Forgeman)
Helen Wainwright Female 25 1816 Worcestershire, England
Helen Wainwright Female 4 1837 Worcestershire, England
James Wainwright Male 2 1839 Worcestershire, England
Letitia Wainwright Female 0 1841 Worcestershire, England
Street Heath
Parish or township Old Swinford
Town Stourbridge
County Worcestershire
Registration district Stourbridge
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1198
Book number 13
Folio number 23
Page number 3

Although the GRO index doesn't name the spouse pre-1912, and all you can get are the names of the brides and grooms appearing on the same page, like FreeBMD's presentation of their transcription:

Marriages Dec 1892 (>99%)
BRAITHWAITE Jonathan Durham 10a 559
Corbett Elizabeth Durham 10a 559
DYKES Margaret Harriet Durham 10a 559
Hart Henry Durham 10a 559

or the same transcription presented in Ancestry's format (see alviegal's post), sometimes a local rego office has its own index online, like the currant Durham office:
https://gro.durham.gov.uk/pgPublicSearch.aspx

These local offices store their certs differently from the way the GRO stores its copies, so their reference to the cert must contain extra info (but they don't always tell you their ref - Durham stopped in the last couple of months).
However, Durham do include the entry # in their ref, not just the page #, so they can search for all the brides & grooms named on that m.cert.
Local indexes do not follow the GRO limits on their index info, so might give the mum's maiden surname pre-1911q3, the date and church of marriage, the age at death pre-1866.
It's always worth checking if there's a local index online (even an incomplete one), so check: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd

Marriage certificate for:
Name: HART, Henry
Year: 1892
Other index entries for this marriage:
CORBETT, Elizabeth
WAINWRIGHT, Elizabeth


1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3RL-V1V
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3RL-V1L

Ancestry puts the Corbetts in the Wainwright household.

Civil Parish: Tudhoe
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: 102 Hope St
Registration district: Durham
Sub registration district: St Oswald
ED, institution, or vessel: 40
Piece: 4958 Folio: 34 Page Number: 26

William Wainwright 66 Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Head W Ironworker
Richard Wainwright 23 Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Son Iron Brakeman
Samuel Wainwright 18 Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Son Ironworker
Wm. Corbett 27 Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Lodger (Head) M Ironworker
Elizabeth Corbett 28 Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Wife M
John H. Corbett 6 Tudhoe, Durham, England Son
Alfred Corbett 4 Tudhoe, Durham, England Son
William Corbett 3 Tudhoe, Durham, England Son
Ellen Corbett Kings Winford, Staffordshire, England Daughter


1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZG-1ZM [Tudhoe]
William Wainwright Head M 55 Hambleroot, Staffordshire
Ellen Wainwright Wife F 53 Stourbridge, Worcestershire
Geo Wainwright Son M 15 Wordsley, Staffordshire
Richard Wainwright Son M 13 Wordsley, Staffordshire
Mary Wainwright Daughter F 10 Wordsley, Staffordshire
Samuel Wainwright Son M 8 Wordsley, Staffordshire

Possible Marriages
Name: WAINWRIGHT, Isiah
Year: 1881
Other index entries for this marriage:
KNOWLES, Mary A

Name: WAINWRIGHT, George
Year: 1873
Other index entries for this marriage:
HANN, Margaret

Name: WAINWRIGHT, Elizabeth
Year: 1874
Other index entries for this marriage:
CORBETT, William

Name: WAINWRIGHT, William
Year: 1879
Other index entries for this marriage:
GIBBON, Ann
BATES, Ann

Name: WAINWRIGHT, Mary
Year: 1880
Other index entries for this marriage:
FARMER, Silas

Name: WAINWRIGHT, Richard
Year: 1881
Other index entries for this marriage:
ANDERSON, Eleanor A

Name: WAINWRIGHT, Samuel
Year: 1888
Other index entries for this marriage:
WATCHMAN, Elizabeth


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

EDIT The remainder of my post asked for 1861 details of the Wainwrights on:
Image ref: Class: RG9; Piece: 2069; Folio: 72; Page Number: 40

Chris Ho has now provided this (and more) so I've removed the skimpy 1861 details I originally posted.
.
Thanks, Chris

Thank you I have now verified the Elizabeth Corbett & Henry Hart marriage, her second.
off to bed thanks so much.
Peter :-) :-)