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O.K. but when you get that birth cert for John Ralph, do please come back onto this thread and tell us what is says - I am intrigued now ;-)

Dea x

I'm still thinking that 1911 census at 30 Ogden St Hulme Manchester could be your John with his father Samuel. The fact that Samuel is listed later on his daughter's marriage as a rubber worker, shows his job had changed from 1911 and would also fit with being a vulcanizer on John's marriage.

Many men lied about their age on attestation and many people lied about their age on their marriage certificates.

I believe that Samuel was John's father- a vulcanizer seems too specific to be made up, and John also called one of his children Samuel.

If the birth certificate for John Ralph gives no positive results, I would consider researching the marriages for the other children of Samuel.

Lily Amelia 1893
Samuel 1897
Frederick c1902
Nelly 1904

Oh, forgot to say, I know the year is out, but thought this may be worth considering for Katharine:

Birth
Name: Catherine Prestage
Mother's Maiden Name: Prestage
Registration Year: 1913
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d Page: 375

AustinQ

That looks interesting, as Alice Prestage married our John Oakes in 1914. Is this a daughter born out of wedlock, and maybe not John's even if he took her on as a dependent? The army record you quote says 23/5/15. As you say, too close to John Ralph Oakes to be a truthful date for Alice's daughter.

Chris Ho's input also looks interesting, even persuasive, assuming John lied about his age to the vicar and to the army. I shall HAVE to get John Ralph's birth certificate (but not immediately).

Samuel was a Rustic worker and builder of garden houses, but he may have gone into the rubber works later.

Hugh

Hugh

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1913

PRESTAGE Catherine Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library (Mother Maiden Name) PRESTAGE ANC/287/91

Chris :)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(worth using above link!)

Samuel from that 1911 census definitely went into rubber works, after being a rustic worker. This is the marriage of his daughter Nelly:

Name: Nelly Oakes
Birth Year: abt 1904
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 11 Apr 1925
Parish: Chorlton upon Medlock, St Luke
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Luke
Father's name: Samuel Oakes (Rubber Worker) <<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Name: James Staphen Macdonald (Motor driver)
Spouse's Father's Name: John Macdonald (shoemaker, deceased)
Address for Bride and Groom: 104 Rusholme Road
Witnesses: Margaret Reids, Samuel Oakes
Reference Number: GB127.M100/1/2/4

Think this might help- Catherine marries Samuel Wagstaff in 1934. She is listed under Prestage and OAKES.

Marriages Jun 1934
Wagstaff Samuel Prestage Manchester S. 8d 443
Wagstaff Samuel Oakes Manchester S. 8d 443

There are passenger lists of her going to Sydney in 1952 with daughter Mavis (born 1938 mm Oakes)

Hugh


Lying about ages on marriage certificates was common!

They did not have to show any proof of age, of parentage or of marital status, and I certainly didn't in the late 1960s ........... I have no idea what the current situation is.

My maternal grandmother and grandfather BOTH lied about their ages when they got married in 1902.

BOTH were under-age, BOTH only added a couple of years to their ages, which still made them under-age

and

BOTH fathers and siblings were present at the wedding AND signed the Register

I have sent for the birth cert of John R Oakes b Q4 1915, so now I have to wait for a week for clinching information about his father (I hope!).

Hugh

The birth certificate was not helpful. John Ralph born 1 November 1915 at 40 Prescott street, Hulme, father John Oakes General labourer. Mother Alice Oakes formerly Prestage. Informant Alice Oakes, Mother, 40 Prescott Street, Hulme. Notified 9 December 1915.

I'm coming round to the suggestion of my John being under age to marry and maybe being born as late as 1896-8. I really don't know how to confirm this.

I shall follow AustinQ's suggestion of trying to trace the siblings.

Thanks to everybody for their ideas and suggestions.

Hugh

I have collated all the John Oakes and Samuel Oakes I could find in roughly the right dates and places, and I think that AustinQ and Chris Ho are right - "my" John Oakes is John H Oakes, born Longsight, Manchester in 1895/6 to Samuel and Nelly nee Moore. The peripheral evidence about occupation in the rubber industry is persuasive.

It's not conclusive, though, as there were two John Oakes born in Chorlton Register district in 1895, in Q1 and Q4. I shall go and do something more rewarding.

Hugh