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This is an enquiry about the parentage of Margaret Elizabeth Boyd, born Gorton,1876, who married William Littler in 1898. It looks a bit as if she may have been illegitimate, as I can’t find a marriage of her father at an early enough date. It is also at least possible that the Margaret Elizabeth Boyd born in 1870 died, and her father gave the same name to his next child…..? He would have been 21 in 1870.

Can anyone suggest a way to clarify where she was between 1876 and 1891?

Transcriptions are a bit of a problem. I have found:

Searching for more information about Margaret Elizabeth Boyd b 1876

Birth registration Q1 1876 Chorlton, ref ARD/129/46 (Ardwick). I haven’t seen the original, Chorlton 8C p 762. Also in Family search, but no information about parents in either.
Birth Registration 23 Jan 1870 Hulme, father William Boyd, mother Elizabeth. Family Search . This may be a red herring, given the date, or it might have meaning.
Death Jane Elizabeth Boyd Q3 1873 Chorlton. No obvious connection except her second name!

Note: Chorlton, Hulme and Ardwick are adjacent parts of Manchester.

No sign of her in the 1881 Census.

Probably her as Margaret Elizabeth Bryd 15 in 1891 Census, servant in Heaton Mersey. Image of original looks like Margaret Elizabeth Boyd, 15, West Gorton.

Marriage 1898. Margaret Elizabeth Boyd 22, spinster, 11 Lord Street, father William Boyd grinder, married William Littler 24 bachelor, 46 Bury Street, father James Littler labourer, at Gorton parish church.

Littler
Littler 1881 Census. James Littler, family, including William aged 7. Living Chapel Yard, Tarvin. (Tarvin is near Chester).
Littler 1891 Census can’t find James or William Littler.
Littler 1901 Census William Littler 27 coal carter, Tarvin; Margeret Elizabeth Do., wife, 25, Gorton; Charles William Do., son, 1, Gorton. Living 540 Reddish Lane, Gorton. (Father, James Littler, next door, with family.)

Boyd
Can’t find William Boyd 1849 Bristol, in the 1871 or 1881 Census. Although he is not in computer transcribe for 1891, he is there:
Boyd 1891 Census. Wm Boyd, 42, printing machine grinder, Bristol; Jane, wife, 30, Clayton; Wm, son, 12, Gorton, Emma, dau, 7 Bradford, Lancs, Florence M 5, Gorton, Horatio N, 2, Gorton, Harry ?10 m, Gorton. (Clayton, and Bradford Lancs, are districts NE of Ardwick and Gorton). Living 17 Lord Street, Gorton.
NOTE 1: Lord Street, Gorton, as ME Boyd on marriage cert 1898.
NOTE 2: May be significant, given William, his son, was born 12 in the 1891 Census, i.e. born between Q2 1878 and Q1 1879.
Boyd 1901 Census. William Boyd, 52, iron grinder, Bristol; Jane Boyd wife, 40, Clayton, Lancs, a number of children all born Gorton, from Florence 15 and Horatio N Boyd 12 to Sarah A 5 and Walter R 3. Living 22 Bank Street, Gorton.

Searching for marriage of William Boyd in this area of Lancashire 1855-1880:
A William Boyd married in Q4 1857 Salford 8D 34. The bride’s name was Eliza Jane Dickson or Catherine Mann.
A William Boyd married in Chorlton in Q4 1867. 8C 626. I don’t know the bride’s name.
A William Boyd married in Manchester in Q4 1872, bride’s name Mary Ann Leighton or Amelia Marrs.
A William Boyd married in Q3 1873 in Manchester. 8D 357. I don’t know the bride’s name.
A William Boyd married in Q2 1879 in Chorlton, 8C 923. The bride was Jane Hollis or Agnes Rowan.

Hugh Wolfson

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
29 Rylands St Gorton M/c, South Manchester, Lancashire, England

William Littler Head Married Male Carter 37 1874 Cheshire Tarvin Transcription
Margaret Elizabeth Littler Wife Married Female - 35 1876 Lancashire West Gorton Transcription
Charles William Littler Son - Male School 11 1900 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
Harry Littler Son - Male - 9 1902 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
Ethel Littler Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
Annie Littler Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
James Littler Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
Joseph Perry Visitor Married Male Collier Hewer 26 1885 Derbyshire Stoombrom Transcription
Annie Perry Visitor Married Female - 25 1886 Lancashire Salford Transcription
Della Perry Visitor - Female - 1 1910 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
Lily Perry Visitor - Female - 0 1911 Perbishire Chesterfield Transcription
Lily Robson Boarder Single Female Maker Up 28 1883 Lancashire Bradford Transcription
Mary Dorothy Robson Boarder - Female Sweeper Up 14 1897 Lancashire Openshaw Transcription

First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name LITTLER
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1874
Age 43
Death quarter 4
Death year 1917
District PRESTWICH
County Lancashire
Volume 8D
Page 301
Country England


this could be her an her birth would be reg 1st quater of 1876

First name(s) MARGARET ELIZABETH
Last name LITTLER
Gender Female
Birth day 24
Birth month 12
Birth year 1875
Age -
Death quarter 2
Death year 1970
District HAVERING
County Essex
Volume 5C
Page 176


so think you need that birth cert for 1st quarter of 1876

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
11, Burrow Street, Bradford, Yorkshire, England

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Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Boyd Head Married Male 27 1824 Engine Fitter Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Sarah Ann Boyd Wife Married Female 22 1829 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Susuannh Boyd Daughter - Female 3 1848 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
William Boyd Son - Male 2 1849 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Transcription
Sarah Ann Boyd Daughter - Female 0 1851 - Horton, Yorkshire, England

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
3, Watson Street, Hulme, Chorlton, Lancashire, England

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Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Boyd Head Married Male 37 1824 Engine Fitter Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Sarah Boyd Wife - Female 32 1829 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Susanna Boyd Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
William Boyd Son - Male 12 1849 Warehouse Boy -
Transcription
Sarah Boyd Daughter - Female 10 1851 Scholar Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Jane Boyd Daughter - Female 7 1854 Scholar Lancashire, England
Transcription
Martha Boyd Daughter - Female 4 1857 - Lancashire, England
Transcription
Thomas Boyd Son - Male 2 1859 - Lancashire, England
Transcription
Mary A Boyd Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Lancashire, England

This looks like the same family in 1871, but mangled by the enumerator.
The Boyds and Worsencrofts are two different households at different addresses, next door to each other, but the enumerator has listed the Boyds as children of the Worsencrofts.
William's a smith foreman.

All the Boyds are unmarried - but as the enumerator's made such a mess of the rest of the record, who knows if that's correct!


William Boyd

in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Boyd
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Son
Father's name: George Worsencroft
Mother's name: Martha Worsencroft
Gender: Male
Where born: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Gorton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Household schedule number: 4
Piece: 3982
Folio: 4
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
George Worsencroft 30
Martha Worsencroft 28
Frank Worsencroft 3 Months
S M H Boyd 23
William Boyd 20 - smith foreman
Jane Boyd 17 - born Liverpool
Martha Boyd 14 - Liverpool
Margaret E Boyd 9 - Manchester
Horatius Nelson Boyd 6 - Gorton
Emmeline Boyd 4 - Gorton
Thomas Henry Boyd 3 - Gorton
Thomas Edge Boyd 3 - Gorton



I wonder if Margaret E, 9, could in fact be the Margaret born 1870, and here aged 9 months rather than 9 years? She's listed as "Son" in the occupation column, although "Daughter" in the relationship column.

[EDIT: Or maybe not - looking back over this thread, it seems that Margaret E aged 9 in 1871 may be the Margaret A aged 9 mths in the 1861 census.
One of these:
Births Jun 1861 (>99%)
Boyd Margaret Elizabeth Chorlton 8c 652
BOYD Margaret Elizabeth Chorlton 8c 653]


SMH Boyd's birth:
Births Sep 1847 (>99%)
Boyd Susannah Maria Hume Manchester 20 702

BOYD Susannah Maria Hume London Road Archives+, Manchester Central Library KINASTON LRD/24/87

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1846
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BOYD Thomas KINASTON Sarah A Manchester, St. John Archives+, Manchester Central Library STJ/7/69

???? Re the two 3-yr-olds in 1871 census -


Well, they can't be brothers.

Births Jun 1867 (>99%)
BOYD Thomas Henry Chorlton 8c 604

Births Sep 1867 (>99%)
Boyd Thomas Edge Chorlton 8c 597

This might help in tracing William back - Horatio is too old in 1871 to be William's son, possibly his brother:


Name:
Huatia Nelrian Boyd
[Horatio Nelson Boyd]

Birth Year:
abt 1863

Age:
26

Marriage Date:
8 Jul 1889

Parish:
West Gorton, All Saints

Parish as it Appears:
Gorton, All Stains

Father's name:
Thomas Boyd

Spouse's Name:
Charlotte Annie Galley

Spouse's Father's Name:
Henry Galley

One of the witnesses is Margaret Elizabeth Boyd.

This looks like the family in 1861 - so the Jane in the 1871 looks like William's sister:

Name:Susanna Boyd
Age:13
Estimated birth year:1848
Relation:Daughter
Father's name:Thomas Boyd Mother's name:Sarah A Boyd
Gender:Female
Where born:Manchester, Lanashire, County/Island:
Lancashire
Thomas Boyd 37
Sarah A Boyd 32
Susanna Boyd 13
William Boyd 12
Sarah A Boyd 10
Jane Boyd 7
Martha Boyd 4
Thomas Boyd 2
Margaret A Boyd 9/12

Possible marriage for William & Jane:

Marriages Jun 1879 Boyd William Chorlton 8c 923 Scan available - click to view
Hollis Jane Chorlton 8c 923 Scan available - click to view
McCONNELL WILLIAM Chorlton 8c 923 Scan available - click to view
ROWAN Agnes Chorlton 8c 923

Lancs bmd also gives Jane's surname as Lloyd, so possible Margaret Elizabeth was Jane's daughter from a previous marriage.

safc - thanks for the earlier Census results for the Boyd family. It shows how Thomas moved around, with his job, presumably, and back to his roots in Manchester. Unfortunately, it doesn't give us Margaret Elizabeth.

shirley- That's an interesting two lines from your transcription
Annie Littler Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
James Littler Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Lancashire Gorton Transcription
should be James Littler -son-male- 4
The next child, Samuel, born in 1912, is the line I have traced already.

shirley - thank you for the (very probable) death information, with an accurate birth date for Margaret Elizabeth, and death dates for both her and William. Poor soul, to be widowed at 42 and live on to 95. I hope her family kept close.

I still need to prove who her parents were, and whether they were married at the time (December 1875), or if they (maybe) married later. That's why I speculated that two Boyds, both with second name Elizabeth, one with mother Elizabeth, in the few years before 1873, might somehow give us a lead to who Margaret Elizabeth's mama was.

Thanks again,

Hugh

Whereupon (after I sent the above) all the messages timed 1212 and later appeared on my screen.

ArgyllGran-, a brilliant find and lead, and thanks to everyone else. I'll go and digest it, and find the images of the original record.

Hugh

Jane's birth ???

Births Mar 1861 (>99%)
HALLAS Jane Chorlton 8c 519

I don't see Jane in 1861 or 1871, before marriage.

You may just have to bite the bullet, Hugh!

Buying that 1876 Chorlton birth cert for Margaret Elizabeth Boyd would be the best way to ascertain who her parents were.

In your opening post you mentioned the death of a Jane Elizabeth Boyd in 1873.

I suggest this was her birth:

Births Mar 1873 (>99%)
Boyd Jane Elizabeth Chorlton 8c 702

Deaths Sep 1873 (>99%)
BOYD Jane Elizabeth 0 Chorlton 8c 381

But as you say, probably no connection.

Jane Isabella Lloyd @1850 Manchester married 1870 in Chorlton to William Hollis 8c 727

They had Julia Ann Hollis 4/2/1871.

Jane Hollis married William Boyd 1879 April

1881 10,Dryden Street Chorlton
William Boyde 29 born Isle of Man
Jane 32
Charlotte Boyde
JULIA ANN HOLLIS 1871.

So not your William.

??
William Boyd age 22 of 31 Cromwell Street Hyde Road Gorton son of Thomas Boyd married 11/11/1872 to Mary Ann Leighton she was born @ 1853 to William Leighton and had sister Elizabeth and Margaret, Mary Ann Boyd died Oct 1879.
Could they have been the parents of your Margaret Elizabeth ?

Did William a widow of 18,Corperation Street then marry Jane Brieley dad Joseph Brierley born Clayton in July 1882? his dad Thomas Boyd
1911 statess Jane born in Clayton!

1911 William and Jane says married 29 years = 1882.

Maryb

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1861 BOYD Margaret Elizabeth Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/98/86
1863 BOYD Horatio Nelson Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/62/48
1865 BOYD Emeline Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/70/86


http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Baptism: 2 Mar 1892 St James, Gorton, Lancs.
Harry Boyd - [Child] of William Boyd & Jane
Born: 27 Jun 1890
Abode: Gorton
Occupation: Grinder
Baptised by: Thomas G. Green
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1892, Page 299, Entry 2388
Source: LDS Film 2113170

Baptism: 2 Mar 1892 St James, Gorton, Lancs.
Horatio Boyd - [Child] of William Boyd & Jane
Born: 15 Apr 1888
Abode: Gorton
Occupation: Grinder
Baptised by: Thomas G. Green
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1892, Page 299, Entry 2389
Source: LDS Film 2113170

Baptism: 2 Mar 1892 St James, Gorton, Lancs.
Florence Mabel Boyd - [Child] of William Boyd & Jane
Born: 5 Sep 1885
Abode: Gorton
Occupation: Grinder
Baptised by: Thomas G. Green
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1892, Page 299, Entry 2390
Source: LDS Film 2113170

Baptism: 2 Mar 1892 St James, Gorton, Lancs.
Emma Boyd - [Child] of William Boyd & Jane
Born: 7 Nov 1883
Abode: Gorton
Occupation: Grinder
Baptised by: Thomas G. Green
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1892, Page 299, Entry 2391
Source: LDS Film 2113170


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1183 BOYD Emma Newton Archives+, Manchester Central Library NEW/90/84
1885 BOYD Florence Mabel Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/200/8
1888 BOYD Horatio Nelson Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/219/92
1890 BOYD Harry Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/236/26

Births Dec 1883 (>99%)
Boyd Emma Prestwich 8d 354
[I'm guessing this is our Emma - Newton is a subdistrict in Prestwich RD, as was Bradford by 1911]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1879
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BOYD * William HOLLIS Jane Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/49/166
BOYD * William LLOYD Jane Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/49/166

Marriages Jun 1879 (>99%)
Boyd William Chorlton 8c 923
Hollis Jane Chorlton 8c 923
McCONNELL WILLIAM Chorlton 8c 923
ROWAN Agnes Chorlton 8c 923

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1870
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
LLOYD Jane I HOLLIS William Longsight, St. John Archives+, Manchester Central Library 80/1/96

Marriages Sep 1870 (>99%)
Hollis William Chorlton 8c 727
LLOYD Jane Isabella Chorlton 8c 727
Wilkinson Johnson Chorlton 8c 727
Wood Christina Chorlton 8c 727

Maybe:
Deaths Mar 1871 (>99%)
HOLLIS William 26 Manchester 8d 184
Deaths Dec 1878 (>99%)
HOLLIS William 43 Manchester 8d 173


1891 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7CYZ-J6Z
Wm Boyd Head M 42 Gloucestershire, England
Jane Boyd Wife F 30 Lancashire, England
Wm Boyd Son M 12 Lancashire, England
Emma Boyd Daughter F 7 Lancashire, England
Florence M Boyd Daughter F 5 Lancashire, England
Horatio N Boyd Son M 2 Lancashire, England
Harry Boyd Son M 10M Lancashire, England
[rg12/3176/39/20]
[Wm Snr pob=Bristol; Jane pob=??; Emma pob=Bradford (Lancs); rest pob=Gorton]

Ancestry gives Jane's 1891 age as 38 - much more reasonable.

*** COULD SOMEONE PLEASE CHECK JANE'S AGE & POB ***




======================

Re Bernadette's opening post

"Note: Chorlton, Hulme and Ardwick are adjacent parts of Manchester."

They, along with Didsbury, are also the registration subdistricts of Chorlton RD 1851-1911.
[The usual ordering in the GRO index is D-A-C-H; they're usually separated by a blank or incomplete even page]

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Gorton
Church name St James
Register type
Register entry number 2391
Baptism date 02 Mar 1892
Birth date 07 Nov 1883
Person forename Emma
Person sex F
Person abode Gorton
Father forename William
Father surname BOYD
Father occupation Grinder
Mother forename Jane

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Gorton
Church name St James
Register type
Register entry number 2390
Baptism date 02 Mar 1892
Birth date Sep 1885
Person forename Florence Mabel
Person sex F
Person abode Gorton
Father forename William
Father surname BOYD
Father occupation Grinder
Mother forename Jane

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Gorton
Church name St James
Register type
Register entry number 2389
Baptism date 02 Mar 1892
Birth date 16 Apr 1888
Person forename Horatio
Person sex M
Person abode Gorton
Father forename William
Father surname BOYD
Father occupation Grinder
Mother forename Jane

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Gorton
Church name St James
Register type
Register entry number 2388
Baptism date 02 Mar 1892
Birth date 27 Jun 1890
Person forename Harry
Person sex M
Person abode Gorton
Father forename William
Father surname BOYD
Father occupation Grinder
Mother forename Jane

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above)

Jane Brierley 1862 Droylesden Lancashire to Joseph and Harriett nee Newton.

Maryb.