Find Ancestors

I have found a living relative that lives very close to me. It's amazing. Thank you Joonie for all your help xx

you're welcome, and so that's that sorted then :-)

... so far ... look at all the children you have, to track down now!

You are correct Joonie. I have since, found someone on GR that had confirmed that Frances married a Horton and had three children with him but she previously married a Barker. Amazing!

Thanks so much for all your help.

yes I think so Natalie :-)

if you do the search at freebmd for Barker-Francis births you will be able to identify them in the years I listed

it's understandable that if your mother was not close to your father's family, or not told all the complicated details of her in-laws' family relationships, she might have got it backwards

but it does tell us the importance of explaining -where- information is coming from, as knowledge and memory are often imperfect and can be stumbling blocks when searching

Looking back through the posts - I think I may be mistaken.

After speaking to my mother - she says it could be possible that Francis was the one who had the children and not David. My mother is only telling me information she has been told as it's my fathers family I am researching.

I know that David had children before having any children with Frances?

ah the 1939 is interesting ... that would be 2 children of David & Frances (David and Zelda - Sylvia born and died in childhood before 1939, last child Royston not yet born) ... and 5 others ... and I am thinking they were Frances's not David's

Barker-Francis births in Pontypridd

Jun 1919
Dec 1920
Dec 1922
Dec 1924
Mar 1927
Dec 1928
Mar 1930
Sep 1931

not posting details as some might be living

have not checked to see whether any died in childhood

but in any case the older ones may well have left home by 1939

and Zelda's brother David is the one I was looking at then, born before Sylvia who died in infancy (easy to find at freebmd remember) - I won't put details here because I can't confirm a death (the 1938 David Horton death is a different child)

is he possibly living in Merthyr Tydfil with his wife?


the father of the 1906 David William Horton, in the1911 census posted by Chris Ho, was a collier, so that's consistent with the info on Zelda's birth certificate for David

possibly the H is hewer like the father in 1911?

this is from Find My Past 1939 index


??? Household
?Caerphilly U.D., Glamorganshire, Wales




First name(s)

Last name(s)

Birth year


France L M Barker 1898
David W ~??? is also on this record born 1906

7 more people who are officially closed


Mavis

(if relating below)

Chris :)

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) David W
Last name Horton
Birth year 1907
Birth date 13 Jun 1907
Event year 1912 (Admission 3/12/12)
School name Graig Board School/Graig-y-wion, Pontypridd (Infants)
Town Pontypridd
County Glamorganshire
Parent name(s) William
Book type Admissions
Archive reference EPP6/2/1
Folio / page no. 15


1911 (Find My Past)
William Horton Father Married Male Collier Hewer 39 1872 Nanelly Breconshire
Sarah Horton Wife - Female - 38 1873 Hanslly Breconshire
Dd William Horton Son - Male - 4 1907 Brithdir Glamorganshire
David Aubery Lodger - Male Collier Hewer 34 1877 Hayelly Breconshire
Address 39 Danycoedcae
Parish Pontypridd
County Glamorganshire
Census reference
RG14 PN32318 RG78 PN1852 RD589 SD3 ED26 SN330


(for Yeovil reference)

Baptism
County Somerset
Place Yeovil
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type
Register entry number 2
Baptism date 21 Apr 1898
Person forename Frances Lily Maud
Person abode 2, North Terrace, Newtown
Father forename George James
Father surname FRANCIS
Father occupation Printer
Mother forename Edith Lily


Baptism
County Somerset
Place Yeovil
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type
Register entry number 714
Baptism date 18 Nov 1896
Person forename Reginald Walter George
Person abode 2, North Terrace, Newtown
Father forename George James
Father surname FRANCIS
Father occupation Confectioner
Mother forename Elizabeth Lily


http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Thank you for your recent posts. I'm sorry that I didn't provide a lot of information at the first post.

I know that David William Horton & Frances Lily Maud Francis is the mother of my grandmother - Zelda Frances Horton born in 1938 in East Glamorgan. She had a brother Royston Horton born in 1941 also in East Glamorgan. I know these for definite. I also know that there was another brother David Horton but I don't know when he was born - before or after my gran.

I have been told that my grans father David William Horton owned a "piggery" in the treforest/Pontypridd area.

On my grans birth certificate it says that her father was a "surface colliery" and then followed by something beginning with H that I cannot make out.

It also says the sub-district as Caerphilly.

looking at Frances's family in 1911

Births Dec 1896
Francis Reginald Walter G Yeovil 5c 399

two people have in their trees at this site:

Reginald Francis 1896 Yeovil, Somerset ...
Reginald Francis 1896 Yeovil Somerset England

and do you know the person who has

Frances Francis 1898 Yeovil, Somerset, England

? (the Frances born 1898 Pontypridd is actually a different person)

and one of the people with Reginald also has

Maud Francis 1898 Yeovil Somerset England

I didn't search for other siblings, but there's every possibility that someone in the family might know something of Aunt Frances/Maud


there are also 9 trees at Ancestry with Frances Lily Maud Francis (one I noticed says 'also known as Maud') with the parents and siblings from the 1911 census I posted above

.............. most showing her as married to William John Barker (died 1934) and numerous children with him up to 1931 ... which overlaps the 1929 Horton-Francis birth .............

>> unless I have opted for the wrong third Horton-Francis child birth and it was not the 1931 birth in Cardiff ... so it would certainly help if you would disclose more about the second brother, Natalie ... might the child have been registered under surname Francis? you know the child's name, just search for the birth with the given name and mother Francis, at freebmd, and see how the birth was registered.

first of several Barker-Francis children:

Births Dec 1920
Barker Reginald W G Francis Pontypridd 11a 1201

so she could be starting to look like a red herring as well ... but no one shows a death for her and the Horton death is the obvious match ... did she leave her husband and children?

Name: David William Horton
Birth Date: 13 Jun 1906
Date of Registration: Jul 1988
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Pontypridd
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 1195

Marriages Sep 1930
Horton David W Marshall Pontypridd 11a 1195
Marshall Florence A Horton Pontypridd 11a 1195

but there are no Horton-Marshall births that seem relevant ... Florence Marshall might have been a widow

there just isn't another David W Horton to account for that marriage
... *except* ... Frances and David had a child in 1929 ... ??

this suggests that the 1906 David can't be the right person after all ............

1911 census

Name: Maud Francis
Age in 1911: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1898
Relation to Head: Daughter
> Birth Place: Yeovil, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Radyr
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: 7 Gilynis Terrace Morganstown Taffs We;;
> Registration district: Cardiff

George James Francis 35 printing (compositor)
Edith Lily Francis 34
Reginald Francis 14
Maud Francis 13
Edward Francis 8
Miriam Francis 6
Evely May Francis 4
Walter Francis 11/12
Francis Henry Hann 65 visitor

this is Frances (note that mother's middle name is Lily)

if Frances herself was still married to a first husband (Barker) at the time of your gran's and her brothers' births, she would have had to register their births in her husband's surname, regardless of who the father was, by law

she may well have simply neglected to mention that she was married to someone else and merely stated her own birth surname, so she could register the births in the surname of their father, to whom she was not married but purported to be

her death would then have been registered in her assumed surname, i.e. her new partner's surname, if that is how she represented herself publicly and how her name was reported by the informant

the name is Horton not Norton

there are births in 1938 and 1941 in East Glamorgan
and earlier births in Cardiff might relate? and even the earlier ones in Bristol
and there is one in Newtown in 1946
1912 Bristol and 1946 Newtown might be mutually exclusive :-)
... and there are marriages in both those places to account for those births

Natalie you started out the post without most of the essential info like -where- *and* -when- ...

with a birth in 1941 she could have been born before 1900 but not much

the two births in East Glamorgan are evident - when and where was the second brother born?

edit - the older brother was the 1929 Cardiff birth

the fourth child (second in birth order) died in infancy

Births Mar 1934
Horton Sylvia M Francis Cardiff 11a 440

Deaths Dec 1934
Horton Sylvia M 0 Cardiff 11a 317

so now we know that David and Frances were together by 1929, which is a lot more than you told us Natalie ......


can you tell us what David's stated occupation on your gran's birth certificate was? to possibly help in identifying him in the 1911 census

there are only 2 norton births in 1938 in east Glamorgan but not with mothers maiden name francis

Jean rings a bell as a half sister.. I don't know for sure - but I can't remember any of the other half siblings x

Have you found when he died ??

Do you know any names for the half brothers ?

No, been unable to find it. I don't think she was married after she married him though x