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Thank you Sylvia, it looks like this family has reached the end of the road, for now.
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On the 1851 census Alice's POB could be Elswick (also found a Alice Grimes, widow, on the 1861 POB Elswick). Elswick is in the parish of St Michaels on Wyre. There is this possible baptism:
Name:
Alice Jackson
Baptism Date:1800
Parish:St Michael-on-Wyre, Lancashire, England
Father's name:John Jackson
Register Type:
Bishops Transcripts
The only other info the image gives Is that the Baptism was at Cop Chapel and was between Easter 24th March 1799 and Easter .13 April 1800. It is No 10 out of 24
1861:
Name:Alice Grime
Age:62
Estimated birth year:1799
Relation:Head
Gender:Female
Where born:Elswick, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Preston
Ecclesiastical parish:St George
Town:Preston
County/Island:Lancashire
Alice Grime 62
George Grime 29 - Reed maker
Sarah Grime 26
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Thank you Potty, that is great. I already knew about Elswick but IGI hadn't brought up a christening for her. Something more to investigate .....
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The IGI is now superseded by the collections at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
Re info on parish registers - here's a set of images, usually with transcriptions from lan-opc:
Baptism: 1 Jan 1782 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
David Wright - Son of Robert Wright
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1797, Page 1
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/ncberu4
Baptism: 1 Jan 1784 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Peggy Orme - Daughter of William Orme & Anne
Abode: Westleigh
Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1797, Page 23
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/p6w8dar
Burial: 21 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Anne Clough - Wife of James Clough
Abode: Atherton
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648
Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Betty Boardman - [widow - mgnv]
Abode: Bedford
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648
Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Ralph Markland - Son of Samuel Markland
Abode: Bedford
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648
Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
[unnamed] Rawstron - Still born child of Henry Rawstron
Abode: Tyldesley
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/p5ndfy7
Baptism: 9 Jun 1782 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Mark Howarth - Son of Robert Howarth
Born: 7 May 1782
Abode: Gooshill
Register: Baptisms 1771 - 1782, Page 48, Entry 1
Source: Original Register
http://tinyurl.com/ohmfrgx
Marriage: 23 Apr 1753 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Jas. Diggle -
Alice Kay -
Register: Marriages 1699 - 1754, Page 42, Entry 2223
Source: LDS Film 559158
http://tinyurl.com/oammlac
Burial: 8 Jan 1773 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Mr. Thomas Kay -
Died: 6 Jan 1773
Abode: Chesham
Notes: C: [against entry]
Register: Burials 1769 - 1778, Page 1, Entry 852
Source: LDS Film 1545462
http://tinyurl.com/nk64gum
In 1813, preprinted rego's came into use, at least for C of E rego's - see:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/actind.htm
in particular:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1812Act.htm
Baptism: 3 Jan 1813 St Mary, Radcliffe, Lancs.
Rachel Fletcher - Daughter of Thomas Fletcher & Ann
Born: 25 Dec 1812
Abode: Radcliffe
Occupation: Smith
Baptised by: Tho. Parkinson
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1827, Page 1, Entry 1
Source: Parish Register
http://tinyurl.com/nzc95nv
Here's a record from Kelloe, Durham:
http://tinyurl.com/nvl6jmv
This doesn't give d.o.b., but does say, e.g., William was the 2nd son of William Benson and Isabella (late Douglas), referring to this marr:
Marriages Jun 1839 (>99%)
BENSON William Whitehaven 25 146
DOUGLAS Isabella Whitehaven 25 146
[I've not seen "2nd child of" - just order by older sibs of same sex.
Giving the mum's maiden surname is uncommon (but less so in the NE).
NB I knew where to find this record as Wm Jnr was my wife's g grandad.]
Marriage: 1 May 1831 St Mary, Radcliffe, Lancs.
Samuel Olive - Warper, this Parish
Ellen Gee - (X), Widow, this Parish
Witness: John Chadwick; Robert Barlow, Clerk
Married by Banns by: Saml. Johnson M.A. Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 146, Entry 436
Source: Manchester Central Library
http://tinyurl.com/oehktxh
[This entry is indexed: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FM12-PZL
Although this hit says "No image available", as we have seen, it would be more accurate to say "No link to image available".
Note the image shows 6 m.certs, and Robt Barlow is a witness on 5 of them.
I would say he was a "professional witness". It's unusual for m.certs 1813-1837 to give the groom's occup.]
Burial: 1 Jan 1813 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancs.
Elizabeth Casson -
Age: 30 years
Abode: Cotton Street Manchester
Buried by: A Hepworth LLB Minister of St. Lukes Chorlton Row
Register: Burials 1813 - 1837, Page 1, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 2148094
http://tinyurl.com/qh7qrms
[The most likely additional info that is sometimes added is the d.o.d. - sometimes there's a marginal note of the plot # in churchyard burials]
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On 1/7/1837, civil registration of BMDs began in England/Wales.
At first, only the registrars, jews, quakers, and the established church (C of E/C of W) were authorized to keep official marr rego's
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JACKSON William STEVENS Jane A Bolton, All Souls Bolton 13/1/395
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:233B-5QR [with image link]
Note 2 things abt the image displayed: firstly it is "Image 198 of 250"; secondly the Entry # is 395, just like the last element of the local ref.
Local refs typically have 3 elements - the first is a church code (or subdistrict code for Bs & Ds) - on LancsBMD these codes are decoded for us;
the second element element is a register sequence # - numbered within the code;
the third element is a page # or entry # - usually marrs have entry #s so one knows who wed whom, which is usually not discernable from the GRO index pre-1912, e.g.:
Marriages Sep 1898 (>99%)
Jackson William Bolton 8c 449
Mort Mary Jane Bolton 8c 449
Rostron Edward Bolton 8c 449
Stevens Jane Ann Bolton 8c 449
Knowing the entry # is useful in finding the image in unindexed sets of images.
An official church marr rego has 500 entries at two per page, so one would expect to find entry 395 on page 395/2 = 198 after rounding up.
This speeds up browsing in unindexed image collections.
Non-conformist churches could be registered as suitable places to have a wedding, but as they weren't authorized to keep official marr rego's, so a registrar would have to attend with his official rego for the couple to sign to conclude the ceremony.
In 1898, non-conformists were authorized to keep official marr rego's, although the authorization process could take a year or two (and the RCs chose not to seek authorization until 1980-ish).
Although non-conformists couldn't keep official marr rego's, they could keep unofficial ones, which could well take a difft form from the official one.
A bit of background:
George McCann was my wife's gg grandad, and he and his bro Patrick were RCs.
Here's some parish records for their families - I've not seen any images
Burial: 27 Mar 1836 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Bridget McCann - Wife of Samuel McCann
Died: 24 Mar
Age: 54
Abode: Scholes
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: Dues pd.
Source: Original register at LRO
Marriage: 7 Sep 1817 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
James Aspinall -
Mary Hurst -
Register: Marriages 1806 - 1822, Page 322
Source: Original register at LRO
Baptism: 18 Oct 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Margt. Aspinall - Daughter of James Aspinall & Mary
Born: 15 Oct 1818
God Parents: James Dagnen; Helen Aspinall
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 239
Source: Original register at LRO
Baptism: 6 Dec 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patrick McCann - Son of Sam. McCann & Bridget
Born: 26 Nov 1818
God Parents: John Cane; Margt. Dalton
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 243
Source: Original register at LRO
Burial: 16 Feb 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
George McCann -
Age: 3 months
Abode: Scholefield
Cause of Death: inflamation
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO
Burial: 4 Jul 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Hannah McCann -
Age: 28 ys
Abode: Hugh St
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO
Burial: 11 Oct 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
William McCann -
Age: 1 year
Abode: Stuart St
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO
Here are Geo & Patk's marrs frim the local index:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN Patrick HEATON Hannah Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/144
What's of interest is the non-official parish marr entries for these:
Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO
Marriage: 7 Jan 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patricium McCann -
Hannam Heaton -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, de Drogheda in Hibernia & Bergittae
Bride's Parents: Danielis Heaton, de Comtu. Carloviensi in Hibernia & Hannae
Witness: Edwardo Diamond; Birgitta Smith
Married by: T. Dilworth M.A.
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 53
Source: Original register at LRO
The forenames have been Latinized, with the variant noun case endings.
Note that the Latinized form of James is Jacobi - the others here are easily guessable.
George says his dad is a citizen of Wigan, whereas Patrick says he's of Drogheda in Ireland - I'm inclined to believe Patrick.
Hannah's dad was from Co Carlow.
Many languages have variant endings to illustrate case, incl Latin, Welsh, Gaelic, Irish, Anglo-Saxon (and modern German).
Modern English has lost them all but the possessive, e.g., Samuel and Samuel's sons.
There are still variant case forms for personal pronouns, e.g., I, me, my, mine, myself.
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Thank you mgnv. I think I am going to need another mug of coffee before tackling all this info. I do have 2/3 www. addresses for getting into IGI info but mostly it involves srolling through pages and pages and still not finding who you were looking for !
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Searching https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1473015 gets:
England Marriages, 1538–1973
1-20 of 84 results for Name: james grime, Event: Marriage, Place: preston, Event Range: 1822-1822
Number of results to show: 20 50 75
Preview Name Events Relationships Details Image
James Grime
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 December 1822 St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
spouse: Alice Jackson
James Grime
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 December 1822 St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
spouse: Alice Jackson
plus another 82 hits spread over 5 pages
Note the above line "Number of results to show: 20 50 75" - clicking on 75 wouldn't change to actual results, but would spread them over just 2 pages, which is less annoying.
========================
https://beta.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6RP-QLM
Name James Grime
Spouse's Name Alice Jackson
Event Date 09 Dec 1822
Event Place St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
Marital Status Single
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M01121-6
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1278741
Reference ID pr 1457 Item 6 p 85
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXGC-RVH
as above
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M01049-1
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1502462
Reference ID p 71 it. 211
==========================
So why are there 2 apparantly identical transcriptions?
Well, click on "Catalog" in the banner bar at the top of the web page and search for the film # 1278741 to get:
Parish registers for St. John's Church, Preston, 1642-1948
Church of England. St. John's Church (Preston, Lancashire)
Baptisms (another filming), 1813-1825. Marriages (another filming), 1778-1837.
A search for 1502462 gets:
Bishop's transcripts for St. John's Church, Preston, 1616-1875
Church of England. St. John's Church (Preston, Lancashire)
Baptisms, marriages, burials, 1819-1824.
Now the Bishop's Transcripts are the church's own backup copies of the parish registers, so they should be identical (although obviously the couple's signatures on the transcripts will be transcribed too, not original, similar to the transcribed signatures on GRO m.certs).
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Thank you mgnv. While looking through my Grime Word file I saw the reference to the first marriage of to Elizabeth Banks in 1848 and see in FreeBMD that there were quite a few Grime births and wondered whether any of them were attributable to Francis William and Elizabeth before she died in 1857. May be Lancs BMD will list them with a mothers maiden name? My quest for this a.m. after I have read through all your relevant instructions again.
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