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Thank you mgnv. While looking through my Grime Word file I saw the reference to the first marriage of to Elizabeth Banks in 1848 and see in FreeBMD that there were quite a few Grime births and wondered whether any of them were attributable to Francis William and Elizabeth before she died in 1857. May be Lancs BMD will list them with a mothers maiden name? My quest for this a.m. after I have read through all your relevant instructions again.

Searching https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1473015 gets:

England Marriages, 1538–1973
1-20 of 84 results for Name: james grime, Event: Marriage, Place: preston, Event Range: 1822-1822
Number of results to show: 20 50 75

Preview Name Events Relationships Details Image

James Grime
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 December 1822 St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
spouse: Alice Jackson

James Grime
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 December 1822 St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
spouse: Alice Jackson


plus another 82 hits spread over 5 pages

Note the above line "Number of results to show: 20 50 75" - clicking on 75 wouldn't change to actual results, but would spread them over just 2 pages, which is less annoying.

========================

https://beta.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6RP-QLM
Name James Grime
Spouse's Name Alice Jackson
Event Date 09 Dec 1822
Event Place St. John'S, Preston, Lancashire, England
Marital Status Single
Spouse's Marital Status Single

Indexing Project (Batch) Number M01121-6
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1278741
Reference ID pr 1457 Item 6 p 85


https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXGC-RVH
as above

Indexing Project (Batch) Number M01049-1
System Origin England-EASy
GS Film number 1502462
Reference ID p 71 it. 211

==========================

So why are there 2 apparantly identical transcriptions?

Well, click on "Catalog" in the banner bar at the top of the web page and search for the film # 1278741 to get:

Parish registers for St. John's Church, Preston, 1642-1948
Church of England. St. John's Church (Preston, Lancashire)
Baptisms (another filming), 1813-1825. Marriages (another filming), 1778-1837.


A search for 1502462 gets:

Bishop's transcripts for St. John's Church, Preston, 1616-1875
Church of England. St. John's Church (Preston, Lancashire)
Baptisms, marriages, burials, 1819-1824.


Now the Bishop's Transcripts are the church's own backup copies of the parish registers, so they should be identical (although obviously the couple's signatures on the transcripts will be transcribed too, not original, similar to the transcribed signatures on GRO m.certs).

Thank you mgnv. I think I am going to need another mug of coffee before tackling all this info. I do have 2/3 www. addresses for getting into IGI info but mostly it involves srolling through pages and pages and still not finding who you were looking for !

On 1/7/1837, civil registration of BMDs began in England/Wales.
At first, only the registrars, jews, quakers, and the established church (C of E/C of W) were authorized to keep official marr rego's


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JACKSON William STEVENS Jane A Bolton, All Souls Bolton 13/1/395

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:233B-5QR [with image link]

Note 2 things abt the image displayed: firstly it is "Image 198 of 250"; secondly the Entry # is 395, just like the last element of the local ref.

Local refs typically have 3 elements - the first is a church code (or subdistrict code for Bs & Ds) - on LancsBMD these codes are decoded for us;
the second element element is a register sequence # - numbered within the code;
the third element is a page # or entry # - usually marrs have entry #s so one knows who wed whom, which is usually not discernable from the GRO index pre-1912, e.g.:

Marriages Sep 1898 (>99%)
Jackson William Bolton 8c 449
Mort Mary Jane Bolton 8c 449
Rostron Edward Bolton 8c 449
Stevens Jane Ann Bolton 8c 449

Knowing the entry # is useful in finding the image in unindexed sets of images.
An official church marr rego has 500 entries at two per page, so one would expect to find entry 395 on page 395/2 = 198 after rounding up.
This speeds up browsing in unindexed image collections.

Non-conformist churches could be registered as suitable places to have a wedding, but as they weren't authorized to keep official marr rego's, so a registrar would have to attend with his official rego for the couple to sign to conclude the ceremony.
In 1898, non-conformists were authorized to keep official marr rego's, although the authorization process could take a year or two (and the RCs chose not to seek authorization until 1980-ish).
Although non-conformists couldn't keep official marr rego's, they could keep unofficial ones, which could well take a difft form from the official one.

A bit of background:
George McCann was my wife's gg grandad, and he and his bro Patrick were RCs.
Here's some parish records for their families - I've not seen any images

Burial: 27 Mar 1836 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Bridget McCann - Wife of Samuel McCann
Died: 24 Mar
Age: 54
Abode: Scholes
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: Dues pd.
Source: Original register at LRO

Marriage: 7 Sep 1817 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
James Aspinall -
Mary Hurst -
Register: Marriages 1806 - 1822, Page 322
Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 18 Oct 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Margt. Aspinall - Daughter of James Aspinall & Mary
Born: 15 Oct 1818
God Parents: James Dagnen; Helen Aspinall
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 239
Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 6 Dec 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patrick McCann - Son of Sam. McCann & Bridget
Born: 26 Nov 1818
God Parents: John Cane; Margt. Dalton
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 243
Source: Original register at LRO

Burial: 16 Feb 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
George McCann -
Age: 3 months
Abode: Scholefield
Cause of Death: inflamation
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO


Burial: 4 Jul 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Hannah McCann -
Age: 28 ys
Abode: Hugh St
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO

Burial: 11 Oct 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
William McCann -
Age: 1 year
Abode: Stuart St
Cause of Death: Decline
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO


Here are Geo & Patk's marrs frim the local index:

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN Patrick HEATON Hannah Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/144

What's of interest is the non-official parish marr entries for these:

Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO

Marriage: 7 Jan 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patricium McCann -
Hannam Heaton -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, de Drogheda in Hibernia & Bergittae
Bride's Parents: Danielis Heaton, de Comtu. Carloviensi in Hibernia & Hannae
Witness: Edwardo Diamond; Birgitta Smith
Married by: T. Dilworth M.A.
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 53
Source: Original register at LRO

The forenames have been Latinized, with the variant noun case endings.
Note that the Latinized form of James is Jacobi - the others here are easily guessable.
George says his dad is a citizen of Wigan, whereas Patrick says he's of Drogheda in Ireland - I'm inclined to believe Patrick.
Hannah's dad was from Co Carlow.

Many languages have variant endings to illustrate case, incl Latin, Welsh, Gaelic, Irish, Anglo-Saxon (and modern German).
Modern English has lost them all but the possessive, e.g., Samuel and Samuel's sons.
There are still variant case forms for personal pronouns, e.g., I, me, my, mine, myself.

The IGI is now superseded by the collections at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND

Re info on parish registers - here's a set of images, usually with transcriptions from lan-opc:


Baptism: 1 Jan 1782 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
David Wright - Son of Robert Wright
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1797, Page 1
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/ncberu4

Baptism: 1 Jan 1784 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Peggy Orme - Daughter of William Orme & Anne
Abode: Westleigh
Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1797, Page 23
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/p6w8dar



Burial: 21 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Anne Clough - Wife of James Clough
Abode: Atherton
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648

Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Betty Boardman - [widow - mgnv]
Abode: Bedford
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648

Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
Ralph Markland - Son of Samuel Markland
Abode: Bedford
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648

Burial: 31 Jan 1783 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
[unnamed] Rawstron - Still born child of Henry Rawstron
Abode: Tyldesley
Register: Burials 1782 - 1791, Page 7
Source: LDS Film 1885648
http://tinyurl.com/p5ndfy7



Baptism: 9 Jun 1782 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Mark Howarth - Son of Robert Howarth
Born: 7 May 1782
Abode: Gooshill
Register: Baptisms 1771 - 1782, Page 48, Entry 1
Source: Original Register
http://tinyurl.com/ohmfrgx

Marriage: 23 Apr 1753 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Jas. Diggle -
Alice Kay -
Register: Marriages 1699 - 1754, Page 42, Entry 2223
Source: LDS Film 559158
http://tinyurl.com/oammlac

Burial: 8 Jan 1773 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancs.
Mr. Thomas Kay -
Died: 6 Jan 1773
Abode: Chesham
Notes: C: [against entry]
Register: Burials 1769 - 1778, Page 1, Entry 852
Source: LDS Film 1545462
http://tinyurl.com/nk64gum

In 1813, preprinted rego's came into use, at least for C of E rego's - see:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/actind.htm
in particular:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1812Act.htm

Baptism: 3 Jan 1813 St Mary, Radcliffe, Lancs.
Rachel Fletcher - Daughter of Thomas Fletcher & Ann
Born: 25 Dec 1812
Abode: Radcliffe
Occupation: Smith
Baptised by: Tho. Parkinson
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1827, Page 1, Entry 1
Source: Parish Register
http://tinyurl.com/nzc95nv

Here's a record from Kelloe, Durham:
http://tinyurl.com/nvl6jmv
This doesn't give d.o.b., but does say, e.g., William was the 2nd son of William Benson and Isabella (late Douglas), referring to this marr:
Marriages Jun 1839 (>99%)
BENSON William Whitehaven 25 146
DOUGLAS Isabella Whitehaven 25 146
[I've not seen "2nd child of" - just order by older sibs of same sex.
Giving the mum's maiden surname is uncommon (but less so in the NE).
NB I knew where to find this record as Wm Jnr was my wife's g grandad.]

Marriage: 1 May 1831 St Mary, Radcliffe, Lancs.
Samuel Olive - Warper, this Parish
Ellen Gee - (X), Widow, this Parish
Witness: John Chadwick; Robert Barlow, Clerk
Married by Banns by: Saml. Johnson M.A. Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 146, Entry 436
Source: Manchester Central Library
http://tinyurl.com/oehktxh
[This entry is indexed: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FM12-PZL
Although this hit says "No image available", as we have seen, it would be more accurate to say "No link to image available".
Note the image shows 6 m.certs, and Robt Barlow is a witness on 5 of them.
I would say he was a "professional witness". It's unusual for m.certs 1813-1837 to give the groom's occup.]

Burial: 1 Jan 1813 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancs.
Elizabeth Casson -
Age: 30 years
Abode: Cotton Street Manchester
Buried by: A Hepworth LLB Minister of St. Lukes Chorlton Row
Register: Burials 1813 - 1837, Page 1, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 2148094
http://tinyurl.com/qh7qrms
[The most likely additional info that is sometimes added is the d.o.d. - sometimes there's a marginal note of the plot # in churchyard burials]

Thank you Potty, that is great. I already knew about Elswick but IGI hadn't brought up a christening for her. Something more to investigate .....

On the 1851 census Alice's POB could be Elswick (also found a Alice Grimes, widow, on the 1861 POB Elswick). Elswick is in the parish of St Michaels on Wyre. There is this possible baptism:


Name:
Alice Jackson

Baptism Date:1800
Parish:St Michael-on-Wyre, Lancashire, England
Father's name:John Jackson

Register Type:
Bishops Transcripts

The only other info the image gives Is that the Baptism was at Cop Chapel and was between Easter 24th March 1799 and Easter .13 April 1800. It is No 10 out of 24

1861:
Name:Alice Grime
Age:62
Estimated birth year:1799
Relation:Head
Gender:Female
Where born:Elswick, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Preston
Ecclesiastical parish:St George
Town:Preston
County/Island:Lancashire

Alice Grime 62
George Grime 29 - Reed maker
Sarah Grime 26

Thank you Sylvia, it looks like this family has reached the end of the road, for now.

Note that the 1851 Census says James was born in Manchester ............
that could be Manchester proper, or it could actually have been one of the areas such as Salford.

Preston is a bit far from Manchester to be considered "Manchester".

probably not!

In most cases neither parents are shown on marriages before about 1835. If a parent was shown, it would be the father, but unlikely.

Will some of you very clever people forgive my ignorance but is there a site where the marriage :-

JAMES GRIME Marriage: 09 DEC 1822 Preston, Lancashire
Spouse: ALICE JACKSON (Witness: Hugh Barton, (X); Jane Grime, (X))

will be shown with the bride's and groom's fathers?
There quite a few of both of them being born c.1801.

Many thanks,
Frances

Thank you Margee, yes I did see your 1851 but then my screen and attention got taken over by Chris!


Thank you mgnv, it looks like I am going to have to start a new Word file just for Family Grime! My original Berry file is now up to 29 pages .........

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1838 GRIME Sarah Ellenor Preston Preston JACKSON PRES/4/57
1841 GRIME James Preston Preston JACKSON PRES/14/68

There were no later Grime-Jackson births in Preston.

Note there is no James Jnr with them in 1851 - I think this is wee James:

Births Mar 1841 (>99%)
Grime James Preston 21 633

Deaths Sep 1841 (>99%)
GRIME James Preston 21 344

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1841
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
GRIME James 0 Preston Preston PRES/13/24



Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1859
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
GRIME James 58 Preston Preston PRES/83/55



Note from CH's post, Francis is a widower - here's his first marr:

Marriage: 2 Nov 1848 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Francis William Grime - (X), 22, Mechanic, Bachelor, Hill St
Elizabeth Banks - 25, Weaver, Spinster, Dale St
Groom's Father: James Grime, Reed maker
Bride's Father: late Thomas Banks, Tailor
Witness: William Mills, (X); Grace Hall, (X)
Married by Certificate by: John Wilson Curate
Register: Marriages 1847 - 1849, Page 165, Entry 329
Source: LDS Film 93994

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1857
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
GRIME Elizabeth 38 Preston Preston PRES/72/64




These look like marrs of Francis's sibs:

Marriage: 25 Dec 1852 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
John Grime - (X), 28, Piecer, Bachelor, Hill St.
Ellen Gornall - (X), 31, Weaver, Spinster, Byron St.
Groom's Father: James Grime, Reedmaker
Bride's Father: late William Gornall, Weaver
Witness: William Hayes, (X); Alice Gornall, (X)
Married by Banns by: S. Hastings, Curate
Register: Marriages 1852 - 1853, Page 4, Entry 8
Source: LDS Film 93995

Marriage: 24 Dec 1859 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
George Grime - (X), 27, Reed Maker, Bachelor, St Peters Square
Sarah Warner - (X), 25, Winder, Spinster, Brougham St
Groom's Father: late James Grime, Reed Maker
Bride's Father: Thomas Warner, Laborer
Witness: John Robinson; Sarah Eleanor Grime, (X)
Married by Banns by: John Wilson, Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1859 - 1860, Page 179, Entry 358
Source: LDS Film 93996

Marriage: 3 Jul 1869 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Ralph Bethel - (X), 30, Weaver, Widower, High St
Sarah Ellen Grime - (X), 28, Weaver, Spinster, Hill St
Groom's Father: Richard Bethel, Weaver
Bride's Father: late James Grime, Reedmaker
Witness: Francis Grime; Sarah Ann Norris
Married by Banns by: Edmund Lee, Curate
Register: Marriages 1868 - 1869, Page 219, Entry 437
Source: LDS Film 93999

Marriage: 24 Jan 1863 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
John Parker - 27, Smith, Bachelor, Park Road
Mary Jane Grime - (X), 25, Heald Knitter, Spinster, Peter St.
Groom's Father: late Thomas Parker, Paper Hanger
Bride's Father: late James Grime, Reed Maker
Witness: Thomas Beardwood, (X); Elizabeth Caton, (X)
Married by Banns by: Thos. Johnson, Curate
Register: Marriages 1862 - 1863, Page 85, Entry 169
Source: LDS Film 93997

Marriage: 13 Apr 1863 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
John Grime - (X), 38, Spinner, Widower, Moss Rose St.
Elizabeth Williams - 24, Servant, Spinster, Moss Rose St.
Groom's Father: late James Grime, Reed Maker
Bride's Father: Thomas Williams, Turner
Witness: Francis Grime; Mary Collins
Married by Banns by: Thos. Johnson, Curate
Register: Marriages 1862 - 1863, Page 145, Entry 290
Source: LDS Film 93997

James Griene Head Married Male 50 1801 Reed Maker Manchester, Lancashire, England

(and 1851 as above, FMP!)

Chris :)

Did you see the 1851 census that I posted, Frances? It's Grime on the original.

Thank you Chris, we are definitely on the same family

now the trick will be to find the next generation back, in 1801 .......

Baptism: 27 Jun 1823 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Robert Grime - [Child] of Jas. Grime & Alice
Abode: Friargate Preston
Occupation: Reed Maker
Baptised by: William Dixon Curate of Broughton
Performed at: Broughton
Register: Baptisms 1822 - 1825, Page 109, Entry 391
Source: LDS Film 1278741


Marriage: 9 Dec 1822 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
James Grime - (X), Bachelor, this Parish
Alice Jackson - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Hugh Barton, (X); Jane Grime, (X)
Married by Banns by: M. Mark Curate
Register: Marriages 1821 - 1825, Page 85, Entry 211
Source: LDS Film 94014


(above comes from below)

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Chris :)


Marriage: 26 Jun 1859 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Francis Grime - 32, Mechanic, Widower, Bispham St
Margaret Hodgson - 29, Weaver, Spinster, Adelphi St
Groom's Father: late James Grime, Reed Maker
Bride's Father: William Hodgson, Tea Dealer
Witness: John Grime, (X); Martha Gregson
Married by Certificate by: John Wilson, Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1859 - 1860, Page 6, Entry 11
Source: LDS Film 93996


Baptism: 23 Mar 1827 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Francis William Grime - [Child] of James Grime & Alice
Abode: Friargate
Occupation: Reed Maker
Baptised by: C Barnes
Register: Baptisms 1825 - 1827, Page 211, Entry 189
Source: LDS Film 1278755

I have got to the family I have quoted from my ancestor in 1861

Grime Francis 1827 Preston Preston, Preston

and

Marriages Jun 1859
Grime Francis Preston
8e 648

Hodgson Margaret Preston
8e 648

so it seems our combined efforts now agree

By George! I think this is them. Look at the mistranscription! The original looks like Grime to me.

James Cuinne

in the 1851 England Census
Record Image View

View Map
View blank form

Name: James Cuinne
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Alice Cuinne
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Preston
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Preston
ED, institution, or vessel: 02q
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 24
Piece: 2266
Folio: 177
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
James Cuinne 50
Alice Cuinne 51
John Cuinne 26
George Cuinne 18
Sarah Cuinne 13

Children born Preston, James Manchester and Alice Elswick. He's a reed maker, it just said reed in 1841 and I didn't know what that meant.

Oh great! There's another James & Alice in Lancashire. This is the family in 1841 that I posted the 1851 census for:

Isabella Grime

in the 1841 England Census
Record Image View

View blank form

Name: Isabella Grime
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Where born: Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Bolton Le Moors
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Little Bolton
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 536
Book: 7
Folio: 53
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
James Grime 25
Alice Grime 25
Henry Grime 5
Sarah Grime 3
Isabella Grime 1