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Grace
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12 Jan 2016 00:40 |
Hi. I am trying to get info on a relative who, as the family story goes, stole a loaf of bread for her sisters hungry children and was punished by the Courts to being sent to Canada. Needless to say, she never returned but someone caught sight of a letter she sent home during the War, asking after everyone and saying that she had got married. This happened a good few years before I was born (1932) and there is no one left (before me) that can throw any light on this event. The name of the girl was Ann Casson. I believe she was the youngest child of James and Ann Casson.. Archive ref. RG13, Folio 87, Page 36, Piece Number 365. They had 6 other children.. Matilda B1881, Elizabeth B1883, Charles B1885, Henry B1887, George B1890, Amelia B1892, Polly B1892 (Twins).. Ann must have been born after all these.. I have searched Child Migrant Trust, The Immigrant Ancestors Project, British Home Children.com and found a Miss A Casson Age 23 (Birth Year 1896). Ship Name Scandinavian, Departure Year 1919. Liverpool - Saint John NB Canada.. Is it her ? and what do I do now ??
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 01:16 |
hm, for starters, the British government could not send people to Canada as punishment :-)
if she was a minor, she might have been sent as a 'Home Child'
thousands of children went to Canada (and Australia) as part of a program to solve Britain's problem of orphaned children or children of impoverished parents who could not care for them (some of whom did not know their children were being sent away) but I think by 1930 this had pretty much stopped for Canada, although it continued for Australia
(sorry, I originally misunderstood and thought the travel out had been in 1932)
the idea was that they were to be adopted or fostered in the new country, but very often they became domestic or farm labourers and had very hard lives
so since the record you have found is for someone aged 23, who matches your Ann, she would have travelled voluntarily to Canada, and not as a home child
but ......... the 1919 passenger record states that the country of last permanent residence for that A Casson was England ... and country of intended permanent residence (travelling to St John, Canada) was Australia, and the space for occupation is just stricken through
the next passenger on the list, a Mrs W King (I think), a married medical student, was also intending to reside in Australia, and the passenger after that, New Zealand.
perhaps they travelled overland to the west coast, and then to Australia?
the one thing I'm missing in your post is where your Casson family lived in England
this is Matilda?
Births Mar 1881 CASSON Matilda Emma St Saviour 1d 44
there is no Ann Casson birth anywhere nearby, for any year anywhere near 1896
I don't see an Amelia birth c1892 either ...
can you check your dates at http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl and identify some of the children's births?
I don't deal well with 'RG' type references ... what year census are you referring to? because I'm not finding them on a search for names
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:17 |
Is this your Casson family in 1901??
There is no Ann on it
1901 Census
Name: James Casson Age: 50 Estimated birth year: abt 1851 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Spouse: Ann Casson Birth Place: Boro, London, England Civil Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr Search Photos: Search for 'Southwark St George the Martyr' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene Southwark County/Island: London Country: England
Registration district: Southwark Sub-registration district: Kent Road ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 365 Folio: 87 Page Number: 35 Household schedule number: 163
James Casson 50 Brush Hawker Matilda Casson 20 b.ca 1881, Bermondsey, London Elizabeth Casson 18 b.ca 1883, Bermondsey Charles Casson 16 b.ca 1885, Bermondsey Henry Casson 14 b.ca 1887, Bermondsey George Casson 11 b.ca 1890, Bermondsey Milly Casson 9 b.ca 1892, Bermondsey Polly Casson 9 b.ca 1892, Bermondsey Ann Casson 49 b.ca 1852, Bermondsey
Address:- 2 Hartington House, Mardyke St
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:18 |
Joonie .................
I was struggling as well, but did manage to find Matilda in 1901 ............... with no younger child Ann
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:23 |
This looks like James in 1911 ......... a widower living with 2 of his sons
1911 Census
Name: James Casson Age in 1911: 59 Estimated birth year: abt 1852 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Southwark, London, England Civil Parish: Newington St Mary Search Photos: Search for 'Newington St Mary' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 22 Inville Road, Walworth Marital Status: Widowed Occupation: TRAVELLER PAINTERS BRUSHER Registration district: Southwark Registration District Number: 23 Sub-registration district: Newington South ED, institution, or vessel: 17 Piece: 1835
James Casson 59 Charles Casson 26 Harry Casson 24
On the image he had written (but then it had been crossed out) married 35 years, 14 children born, 10 still living, 4 died
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 01:25 |
okay here is the family in 1901 in Southwark St George the Martyr
but no daughter Ann
James Casson 50 brush hawker Matilda Casson 20 Elizabeth Casson 18 Charles Casson 16 Henry Casson 14 George Casson 11 Milly Casson 9 Polly Casson 9 Ann Casson 49 wife
edit, Sylvia got there ahead of me - I was looking for earlier censuses to no avail :-)
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:30 |
This child could in fact be the A Casson on the passenger list
1901 Census
Name: Annie S Carson [Annie S Casson] Age: 6 Estimated birth year: abt 1895 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Father: Jesse H Carson Mother: Annie E Carson Birth Place: London, England Civil Parish: Ecclesall Bierlow Search Photos: Search for 'Ecclesall Bierlow' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Town: Sheffield County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow Sub-registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow ED, institution, or vessel: 57
Piece: 4355 Folio: 144 Page Number: 21 Household schedule number: 134
Jesse H Carson 42 Annie E Carson 39 Annie S Carson 6 Ivy E Carson 4 Lamb Shirtcliffe 63
This is the reason for the correction for the name, posted by an ancestry member in 2008 ..............
Casson rather than Carson
Correction due to an error in transcription.
Surname Casson known from daughter's birth certificate
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:40 |
????? a possible "Ann"
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Ivy Ann Casson Registration Year: 1908 Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Registration district: Camberwell Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District Inferred County: London Volume: 1d Page: 864
but NOT the child of James and Ann
1911 Census
Name: Ivy Casson Age in 1911: 2 Estimated birth year: abt 1909 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Birth Place: London, United Kingdom Civil Parish: Camberwell Search Photos: Search for 'Camberwell' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 28 Graylands Rd, Peckham S E Registration district: Camberwell Registration District Number: 27 Sub-registration district: St George ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Piece: 2525
John Casson 31 Susan Casson 33 Louisa Casson 7 Patrick Casson 6 Alice Casson 4 Ivy Casson 2 Robert Casson 0
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 01:42 |
there are other possibles in the 1911
in Lancaster
Henry Casson 38 Dorothy Ellen Casson 36 > Annie Casson 15
in Tranmere, Cheshire
Henry Robert Casson 48 Margaret Cason 44 Frederick Henry Cason 23 Herry Cason 19 Ernest Cason 17 > Annie Cason 15 Caterine Selina Cason 12
in Cockermouth
Sarah Casson 55 Edward Casson 34 John Casson 24 Ernest Casson 22 Thomas William Casson 19 > Annie Edith Casson 14
(the sailing was on 2 April 1919)
(Sylvia, such long blocks of text for people who are being ruled out!)
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 01:42 |
Grace ..........
in view of all this ..............
what is your proof that her name was Ann Casson?
What makes you think she was the child of James and Ann Casson?
But people were not sent to either Canada or Australia as punishment by 1919
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 01:49 |
do you know for sure what the later lives of the Casson daughters were, and that they remained in England?
I'm wondering whether the woman who went to Canada was a granddaughter, even, who would have been an adult and married by WWII
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 02:07 |
the couple actually did have quite a few other children besides the ones you have listed, Grace
this is the 1881 census
James Casson 29 traveller Ann Casson 26 Eliza Casson 9 Ann Casson 8 James Casson 6 Thomas Casson 3 Sarah Casson 2 Matilda Casson 2 months
1911 census: '14 children born, 10 still living, 4 died'
we don't know which children died
so there is every possibility that the woman who went to Canada was a granddaughter, a child of one of the children born before 1881 for instance
since their mother was Ann, any of them might have had a daughter Ann, but not necessarily Casson
but I think I'm not going to try to trace the paths of each of those children :-D
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mgnv
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12 Jan 2016 02:59 |
Province or Territory: New Brunswick District: St John and Albert District Number: 47 Sub-District: Saint John (City) - Sydney Ward Sub-District Number: 18 City, Town or Village: St John City Street or Township: 46 St James Municipality: Sydney Ward Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Mary Casson 74 William H Casson 44 Annie J Casson 40 [immig 1906] Silas Casson 38
This is the only English born Annie Casson on the 1921 census - well, there's also the w/o John Casson, but I'm excluding her.
[image pm'ed to Grace] [it said 1st send failed, so I sent again, but I think it eventually worked, so sorry for the repetition]
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Cynthia
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12 Jan 2016 12:09 |
Welcome to the Community boards Grace.
(I'll let Grace know that she has replies to her query.) :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 16:37 |
Hi Grace, you're halfway there. You need to reply here in the thread - use the 'Add your reply' box at the bottom rather than clicking on my or someone's name.
I'm going to put your message here so others helping can see it as it does not seem to be private info
'Hi Joonie, First, I would like to thank you for your time and expertise in helping me with this. This Matilda you mention seems to be right. The family in the 1901 census were living at 2 Hartington House, Mardyke Street, St George the Martyr Parish, Southwark, London. The parents were Ann B1862 in Bermondsey & James B1851 also I believe S.E.London. The other children are Elizabeth 1883, Charles 1885, Henry 1887, George 1890 and Twins Amelia (my Mother) and Polly 1892. Anne would have been born after 1892. '
yes, that is all in your opening post ... now what you need to do is read back over the thread :-)
you can look yourself for a birth of this supposed Anne at http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl ... it is not there
mother Ann's dob from the census works out to c1852, not c1862
Ann & James had quite a few more children than that - see his entry in 1911 saying he had 14 children of whom 10 were still living, and see the 1881 census listing older children
there was no Ann(e) Casson born after those other children anywhere in their geographic vicinity
they did have a daughter Ann shown in the 1881 census as 8 years old but she would likely be too old to have been the one you are talking about who wrote from Canada during WWII (unless you meant WWI?)
we need to find some other way of figuring out who the woman in Canada was, because they info you are giving seems not to be correct
the Miss A Casson who travelled to Canada in 1919 is almost certainly one of the Anns from other parts of England, that Sylvia and I suggested
the Annie Casson posted by mgnv in Canada in 1921 was with her parents Mary and William, and brother William, in the 1891 English census in Cumberland ... Mary and Annie travelled to Halifax in 1905 ... your James & Ann did not live there and did not have a son William, so you can disregard her
I would note that I have been unable to find the family in 1891 ... since James was identified in 1881 as 'traveller' and was later a 'brush hawker', I wonder whether the family were in fact 'travellers' (in the 'gypsy' sense) and were missed on that census
the family was in the St Saviour Southwark / Southwark registration disrict in 1881 and 1901, and there were a dozen Casson births there in that period, but no Ann ... in fact, except for Matilda 1881 and a Mary 1892, all were boys ... one being your George, and others could be children of James & Ann who died before 1901
the only thing I can think of is to try to trace each of the children shown in the 1881 and 1901 censuses to see whether they remained in England and whether they married and had children, and whether perhaps a grandchild went to Canada ... and that is a bit of a massive undertaking
there is also always the possibility that one of the girls had a daughter while unmarried, who could be the woman in Canada
Amelia (Milly) and Mary (Polly) were tin workers in Camberwell in 1911 ... no other Casson with birthplace 'Bermondsey' shows in that census so finding them all could be difficult, and we do not know which four had died
the ones we know of from the 1881 and 1901 censuses are
1881 Eliza Casson c1872 Ann Casson c1873 James Casson c1875 Thomas Casson c1878 Sarah Casson c1879 Matilda Casson 1881
plus in 1901 Elizabeth Casson c1883 Charles Casson c1885 Henry Casson c1887 George Casson c1890 Milly (Amelia) Casson c1892 Polly (Mary) Casson c1892
which makes 11, so one of them had died before 1911 ... or a child could have been born in the early 1880s and left home by 1901, while another child had died ...
we don't flinch in the face of difficult searches here, but I'm afraid this one may be less difficult than impossible :-(
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 16:58 |
Hi Grace
Thank you for your messages ......... as Joonie said, you should reply on this thread, so that we can all see what your replies are. You see, we work together, helping each other to find information to help you.
I have copied over your 5 messsages so that everyone can see the replies
1. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:17
Is this your Casson family in 1901??
"Hi Sylvia. First I must thank you for your time and your brilliant detective work. (I struggle with so much). This is the right family. I believe Ann /e was born after this 1901 census. I know Ann existed because many years ago I was shown a letter that she had sent back to the family saying that she had now married a Janitor ? and she had a family now in Canada. She was never seen or heard from by the family again."
2. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:23
This looks like James in 1911 ......... a widower living with 2 of his sons
"Hi Sylvia. This is a bit of info I didn't have. In the 1911 census, I found Matilda Now married to Albert Aitkenhead B1881 and with a 1yr old daughter Margaret. Also in the same household is Amelia Casson (my mother) and Mary (Polly) her twin. Looks as if the Casson family split up on the death of their mother Ann. Regards Grace"
3. I think this reply refers to this posting
SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:30
This child could in fact be the A Casson on the passenger list
"Sorry Sylvia, none of these are my relatives. I know since the 1860s and maybe for longer they have all lived in the London Boroughs of Southwark or Bermondsey. Regards G"
4.
"Hi Sylvia, Ann was born after my mother in 1892. My family at this time (no wonder with all those children) were dirt poor and there is no way any of them could afford to send one of their number to Canada. Also, I am maybe inclined to agree with the family story that Ann was 'deported' because of stealing bread. After all, the family are not scoring 'Brownie points' for labelling one of their number a criminal. (It'll turn out this Ann robbed a Brinks Matt vault and went to Canada in a private yacht ).. I do hope so.. Regards Grace"
:-D :-D :-D what fun if she had :-D :-D :-D
5. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:42
Grace .......... in view of all this .............. what is your proof that her name was Ann Casson? What makes you think she was the child of James and Ann Casson?
"Hi Sylvia, My only proof is the family stories and the fact that I have seen a letter from her. Right up until the start of WWII it seems Barnardo's and other Christian charities were sending children to the commonwealth. Maybe one of these had a deal with the Authorities.?. Stranger things have happened and maybe this info is still classified ? I would make a good thriller writer lol G"
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SylviaInCanada
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12 Jan 2016 17:01 |
OK
so what if you have your dates wrong??
Thesis .....
....... the child Ann was born 1893/94, stole bread around 1899, was put into a home for delinquent girls OR handed over to the home by the parents before the 1901 Census.
She was then sent to Canada between 1901 and 1911as a child aged 11 to 15.
That would fit with the ages of children sent to Canada as Home Children.
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Rambling
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12 Jan 2016 17:06 |
Name: Robert Richard Casson Record Type: Baptism Baptism Date: 1 Dec 1895 Father's name: James Casson ( traveller) Mother's name: Annie Casson Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene Borough: Southwark
Name: George William Casson Record Type: Baptism Baptism Date: 7 Sep 1890 Father's name: James Casson Mother's name: Annie Casson Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene Borough: Southwark Register Type: Parish Registers
Name: Robert John Casson Record Type: Baptism Baptism Date: 2 Dec 1888 Father's name: James Casson Mother's name: Annie Casson Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene Borough: Southwark Register Type: Parish Registers
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 17:17 |
I think you sent this message while I was adding the above, Grace
'Hi Joonie. A granddaughter ? She was always referred to me as my aunt. I was born in 1932 and my mother Amelia died in 1938 and then shortly after I was evacuated away from family to Devon. Therefore, I have always been too young to receive knowledge from my elders and had to rely on my siblings, who themselves didn't know much.'
okay now we know a little more, that Amelia at least is accounted for :-)
yes certainly, your mother was the youngest of the clan, 20 years younger than the eldest, so you were at a disadvantage for knowing your older relations
keep in mind that family relationships are not always accurately described ... you could well have had a cousin older than many aunts, if born in the 1890s or even earlier, a child of Eliza c1872 or Ann c1873, say ... she could have been 40 years older than you
this certainly happens ... I have a relation I met on line who thought her grandfather was my grandmother's first cousin ... he wasn't ... my gr-grmother Alice was the youngest in the family, and she and her eldest sister Mary each had a child before marriage ... Mary's in 1872 and Alice's in 1890 ... my newfound cousin thought her grandfather was Mary's son William ... but he wasn't, he was William's son William :-)
... so maybe this Ann was Amelia's older sister Ann's daughter Ann, just for example
it would be excellent if we could find this family in 1891 ..........
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JoonieCloonie
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12 Jan 2016 19:22 |
just for info, this would be James's and Ann's marriage
Marriages Dec 1872 CASSON James St. Saviour 1d 235 HART Ann St. Saviour 1d 235
Ann's death
Deaths Dec 1907 = born c1854 CASSON Ann 53 St.Olave 1d 89
probably her birth
Births Jun 1853 HART Annie Bermondsey 1d 54
this is the only baptism of a (possible) child of theirs shown at familysearch.org
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ52-4BV
Name Robert Richard Casson Gender Male Christening Date 01 Dec 1895 Christening Place St. Mary Magdalene's, Bermondsey, Surrey, England Father's Name James Casson Mother's Name Annie
Births Mar 1896 Casson Robert Richard St. Saviour 1d 2
Deaths Jun 1897 Casson Robert Richard 1 St. Saviour 1d 15
this is a complete list of Casson births in St Saviour reg dist 1870-1900 * are the ones we know are James's and Ann's children
Births Mar 1870 CASSON Charles Thomas St. Saviour 1d 53 or 58
* Births Dec 1871 Casson Eliza St. Saviour 1d 27
* Births Mar 1873 CASSON Annie St. Saviour 1d 49
* Births Dec 1875 CASSON James St. Saviour 1d 28
* Births Sep 1877 CASSON Thomas St. Saviour 1d 30
* Births Jun 1879 Casson Sarah Alice St. Saviour 1d 32
* Births Mar 1881 CASSON Matilda Emma St Saviour 1d 44
* Births Mar 1885 CASSON Charles St Saviour 1d 38
Births Sep 1889 died 1889 Casson George Henry St. Saviour 1d 67
Births Dec 1890 died 1891 Casson Frank Jacob St. Saviour 1d 69
Births Mar 1891 Casson Edward Thomas St. Saviour 1d 4
Births Dec 1892 (son of James born in Ireland c1859, per 1901 census) Casson Alfred St. Saviour 1d 103
Births Mar 1893 Casson Henry John St. Saviour 1d 8
Births Sep 1894 Casson George Alfred St. Saviour 1d 6
? Births Mar 1896 Casson Robert Richard St. Saviour 1d 26
Births Jun 1897 Casson William St. Saviour 1d 66
Births Mar 1899 died 1899 Casson Samuel Frederick St. Saviour 1d 63
Births Jun 1900 (son of James born in Ireland c1859, per 1901 census) CASSON Samuel Henry St Saviour 1d 130
I haven't found birth regs for Amelia (Milly) and Mary (Polly)
some probable marriages
Marriages Sep 1889 Casson Eliza St. Olave 1d 493 MORGAN George William St. Olave 1d 493
1911 in Bermondsey
George W Morgan 44 lighterman Eliza Morgan 39 George J Morgan 21 Beatrice Morgan 17 Grace Morgan 15 Albert Morgan 12 Edward Morgan 9 Winifred Morgan 7 Leonard Morgan 5 Eileen Morgan 2
Marriages Jun 1898 Casson Sarah Alice St Olave 1d 414 Greig Albert Edward St Olave 1d 414
1901 in Southwark
Albert Edward Greig 25 Sarah Greig 22 Alice Ethel Greig 2
Sarah had died by 1911
Albert Edward Greig 34 Alice Greig 12 Margaret Greig 10 Jessie Greig 8 Mary Greig 3
Marriages Dec 1899 Casson James St. Saviour 1d 280
so just an example of how Amelia could have had nieces and nephews her age or even older
one of whom might have been thought of as your aunt, although really your cousin
do you have any record of Amelia's birth? do you know the date of her birthday (day and month?)
the only Amelia born in St Olave district who would have been 9 in 1901 who had a twin registered on the same page was
Births Jun 1892 Lewis Amelia St. Olave 1d 310 Lewis Gertrude May St. Olave 1d 310
it is therefore interesting to note that the births of several of the children were not registered in Bermondsey
this birth is possibly interesting
Births Sep 1892 Casson Mary St. Olave 1d 191a
she is the only one on that page and it could possibly be a correction to
Births Sep 1892 Cashan Mary St. Olave 1d 191
>>> oh my goodness yes indeed
Births Sep 1892 Cashan >>> Amelia Emily St. Olave 1d 192 Cashan >>> Mary St. Olave 1d 191
the twins, on consecutive pages, under surname CASHAN
also
Births Sep 1896 died 1896 Cashan William St. Olave 1d 228
Births Mar 1899 >>> died 1899 Cashan Annie Amelia St. Saviour 1d 149
so that Annie Amelia Cashan is NOT your Ann, in any event
but still no trace of the family in 1891
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