Find Ancestors

Prudence comes to mind here.

Well done and again what great helpers on genes. Tenacious and never giving up.

We enjoy helping others as we in turn have been helped.

Good luck
Peahen

Thank you as always to all of you who tried hard to find a Will and/or record of Probate for our chap.
We're going to have to accept that he didn't leave a Will nor did he leave an estate worthy of Probate. Although it is interesting, as I've posted earlier, that his widow left a tidy sum for those days in 1903 - wonder how she got that money together? Her brother in law [my own direct ancestor] did leave her £100 in 1873 but I wouldn't have thought that would have amounted to much all those years later. And her son Frederick left a goodly amount, too, in 1927 - can't think where he got that from .............
So, I'm going to unofficially 'close' this thread - unless, of course, any of you out there stumble across the missing link ...................
:-D

(just to add, did note wrong day on below also!. Saw only snippets in newspapers, but, as you know, was 17th, Bronchitis)

Chris :)

Cambridge University Alumni, 1261-1900 (Ancestry)

Name Thomas Kibble. Hervey
College: CAIUS
Entered: Michs. 1822
Died:
27 Feb 1859 More Information:
Adm. pens. (age 22) at CAIUS, July 2, 1822. S. of James, merchant, of Manchester. B. Feb. 4, 1799, at Paisley, Scotland. School, Manchester Grammar (Dr Smith). Matric. Michs. 1822; Scholar, 1822-3. Migrated to Trinity, Feb. 10, 1823. Articled to Sharp, Eccles and Co., solicitors, Manchester. Read for the Bar, but was not called. Married, Oct. 17, 1843, Eleanor Louisa, dau. of George Conway Montagu, of Lackham, Wilts. Edited Friendship's Offering, 1825-7. Contributed novelettes and poems to several of the Annuals. Editor of the Athenaeum, 1846-53. A sound critic of art and literature. Author, Australia, a poem; The Convict Ship; The Poetical Sketch Book, etc. Died Feb. 27, 1859. Buried in Highgate cemetery. (Boase, I. 1451; Venn, II. 183; Manchester Sch. Reg., III. 284; D.N.B.)

JoonieCloonie: no they are the 'other' Hervey's. The ones who owned Ickworth until the heirs variously lost vast amounts of money. They are known as the 'mad' Hervey's, not that every family is a little bit bonkers too!!

Marie Celeste: I had no idea about the BNA on FMP. I'm learning all the time. Thank you for the heads up.

Eringobragh: Yes thank you, we have all this; including some letters, which are such fun. Lee Hall [Legh Hall] where my direct ancestor lived and where he sent the letter from, is about an hour from where we live. The current owners are very hospitable and we visit annually with updates about 'their' house!!

:-D

Nicola ...Don't know if you have this ...Very concise also you can click onto the left hand side link and read about Eleanor and the letter from Her Brother in Law Robert Hervey (TKH's brother)

http://spenserians.cath.vt.edu/BiographyRecord.php?action=GET&bioid=35973

Nothing magical Nicola, I just put his name into the search engine on FindMyPast for the British Newspaper Archives on there.

Same result would have come up on the BNA's own site http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

Indeed the same ploy would have worked in the same way on the Newspapers on this site (although I don't subscribe - won't chuck money onto a site that's going down the pan).

What surprised me was that I didn't get any hits for the year of his death - 1859.

Nicola, now that your thread has come to a conclusion more or less ... I'll add this :-)

the findagrave person who has the page for your Thomas has made quite a collection of Herveys

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=vcsr&GSvcid=398857

I doubt that the prominent English people she has gathered up have anything to do with her own US Herveys

I had a look at this one,

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=142435620

and then just because I was so amused by her copyright notice (not that I don't agree with it), I had a look via a google images search to see where she might have got that portrait

and I found this

http://www.npgprints.com/image.php?imgref=135727

(it's exactly the same person in exactly the same dress)

so the lady in question,

'Daughter of Frederick William Hervey* and Katherine Isabella Manners Hervey. She married Richard Somerset le Poer Trench, Viscount Dunlo, 4th Earl of Clancarty, on November 29, 1866 at Ickworth.'
(* 'British Tory politician, 2nd Marquess of Bristol. Lord Jermyn from 1803 to 1826, Earl Jermyn from 1826 to 1859.')

was music hall girl Belle Bilton, which the findagrave bio fails to mention :-D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Clancarty

'Lord Clancarty's great-grandson, the fifth Earl, is notable for marrying an English music-hall singer Belle Bilton (1867–1906)'

Any relation??

Thank you for that MC. I'll try!

But there may be a lull in activity while I tidy up a lot of loose ends in my Tree. But thank you for the encouragement.

BTW, how on earth did you find the insolvency article? You must have used some advanced search and/or wording to seek that one out. Please tell me how.

:-D

Nicola - I do so enjoy your threads, so full of colourful characters.

Keep them coming!

Well it's certainly proved a 'first' for our Family Tree! Nobody has been imprisoned before ................ yet. What a miserable time he must have had.

It may go some way to explaining why he had no money - perhaps his father was so disappointed that his son had wasted his Manchester Grammar School scholarship and then Cambridge Law degree and entered what could well be regarded as the wasteland of the life of London society he may have cut off any financial support?!!

Here is a wicked snippet: “T.K.Hervey - the sweetest of Poets, and, by a long way, the ugliest of men. He had red hair and wore a wig to hide it, but the red came through.” OH DEAR!

But now I wonder how his widow managed to leave such a good amount when she died in 1903? She surely couldn't have amassed that amount by her literary contributions? And her brother-in-law [see above post] 'only' left her £100 in his Will which wouldn't have gone far enough to be able to increase it by such a %age?

If TKH had died penniless or virtually penniless, wouldn't there be some newspaper announcement calling for any creditors to come forward perhaps??

And another of my ancestors, a Barrister who was known to be wealthy, died in an awful train accident in Victorian times and there was an announcement in the papers for a reward if his Will could be found; it was, and it worked out. He slipped between the train and the platform at Kings X as the train was coming in and was rushed to hospital 'in a cart' still conscious so he could tell them his name, but died a few hours later. The inquest heard that his 'corpulence' had contributed to the accident ............

:-D

Pleased you got the article OK Nicola. You can now add a new chapter to the biography.

I'm pretty darned certain there will be no will, what would he put in it? "I have nothing and I leave it to my wife"? Poor man.

Thank you to MarieCeleste for the fascinating newspaper clip about TKH's early life. It reveals even more than we already knew, i.e., we knew that he went to live in Paris for a while but it now appears that he 'fled' to France to escape his creditors! And the article gives a few more addresses than we already had from his correspondence. All good stuff.

TKH certainly came from money but it seems that it didn't trickle down to him much. He dropped out of reading Law at Cambridge, much to his father's annoyance, and while at Cambridge published his first well known poem - an epic named 'Australia'. Following from this success, he went to live in London and embarked on his literary career.

No, he wasn't married before Eleanora. Incidentally, Eleanora herself came from an interesting family and her family home was Lackham House in Wiltshire. Her grandfather was a famous naturalistt and when he 'discovered' a new falcon, he named it after her: 'Eleanora's Falcon'! He also discovered 'Montagu's Harrier', etc., etc. How lovely. Eleanora was a poet and author in her own right.

Eleanora is buried in Broadwater Cemetery, Worthing. Her headstone is careful to describe not just her late husband but also her family's roots. Yes, she and her son Frederick lodged variously with families who had 'rooms' including surname of 'Poland'. Thank you for researching that the Mrs. Kennard was a nee Poland. That explains a lot! Very interesting. She died in 1903. She left £894.5s.1d to her son - a nice little legacy in those days.

In TKH's half brother's will [my GGGG Grandfather who died in 1873], he left a legacy to his 'sister' Eleanora. So this seems to indicate that although TKH moved in literary and social circles in London, he probably didn't have two halfpennies to rub together and this may explain why there is no record of his Will/Probate/Estate? We have many obituaries, some of them VERY lengthy!, about TKH and they all reveal a little more than the last one.

Thank you to you all for your help. Thank you to JoonieCloonie for hauling some of you back from putting info on, too!!!

Still no luck with his Will? Probate????

:-D

Me too; covered Scotland and Ireland as well as England.

Another thought about being supported, maybe her family helped her and rooms/boarding were the way to go in those days especially in London. Also like the idea she may have financed hereself through her own writings.

I am in NZ so delay here sorry if I come in after comments. I do try to read through though!

Peahen

Following Sylvia's Scotland thought - did a free search on Scotland's People (which goes to 1935 for wills), nothing there.

Well, maybe his wife supported herself and her son by her writing, rather than being taken of by money left by her husband? It is only the very last census where she says Living on Own Means, in all others she declares being an authoress and poet.

The son also seems to have been a bit of a waster, according to the censuses .............. he's variously described as having recently been a clerk to no occupation shown, with no occupation being the prevalent one!

I also don't know the areas where they were living, but occupying one or two rooms in houses or boarding would have been a very cheap way of living at that time, especially in winter in seaside places like Brighton and Worthing!



The thought did cross my mind later last night as to whether Thomas Kibble might have filed a will in Scotland?

Oh thank JoonieCloonie. Could not incert the accent either and you have cleared that one up nicely.

By the time I had added the info, other helpers had gone ahead with their findings, which related better. Grabbing at straws and all that.

Seems MarieCeleste has found the information that although once wealthy, he lost it all and therefore, nothing to make a will for.

His wife and son seem to have been cared for though.

Great research here - once aain.
Peahen.

Just to note that I had checked out the Eleanor Hervé whom Peahen mentions, whom I referred to in an earlier post

Deaths Sep 1903
Herve Eleanor 73 Kingston 2a 190

(freebmd doesn't do accents, but the name in the probate records is Hervé)

definitely a different person.


I think MarieCeleste is probably right about the reason for the absence of a will/probate

(I think it's possible to have had a will but not needed to obtain probate, if there was no money or property that had to be transferred)

Have emailed the article mentioned above to Nicola - it gives a multitude of addresses for him.

It was mentioned above by DET that he may no longer have had much money - there seems to be information to support that.

In the Huntingdon, Bedford & Peterborough Gazette of 31 May 1834 there are several entries from "The Court for Relief of Insolvent Debtors" - one of the listings is for Thomas Kibble Hervey (sued as Thomas Kebble Huevey). He is described as a law student and author. At the time of the article he was in the debtors prison for London and Middlesex.The court hearing was to be the 19th of June.

It seems that his position didn't change quickly, according to the info in this book link:

https://goo.gl/SY147P

I think it may just be the case that he didn't have anything to make a will for.

Have just located a will/probate for an Eleanor Herve of 56 Griffiths Road, South Wimbledon Surrey - widow, died 22nd September, 1903, which conflicts with the December date and the Herve no 'y' seems unlikely.

This is a needle in a haystack one.

JoonieCloonie is right we do have to keep to the point as Nicola does say she has a lot of information already. KJeep focusing on seeking a will whenever it may appear.

Peahen.