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I am asking help about my grandfather Joseph Doyle born 1861 born I think in Manchester parents are Joseph Doyle 1826 mother Ellen Doyle née Leonard born 1829 both parents are from Ireland
I can find Joseph Doyle 1881 in a Night Assylum is this a poor house ? States he is married and a unemployed porter he marries my grandmother Mary Ellen Bancroft in 1895 I can find him on the 1901 and 1911 census with the family the next time I find him is on a ship to America in 1917 aboard the St Paul he ends up in Ohio dying in 1936 at a Salvation hostel
My quest was to try and find
1-- his first wife
2-- what was he doing in the night Assylum
3-- did he divorce Mary Ellen
I don't appear to be able to get any further back from 1871 census
So if anyone could point me in the right direction Inwould be grateful these of course could all be red herrings and they are not one and the same person :-0

Is this your family in 1871?

Name: Ellen Doyle
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Joseph Doyle
Gender: Female
Where born: Carlow, Ireland
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Oswald
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Household schedule number: 2
Piece: 4054
Folio: 106
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Doyle 48 Bootmaker b Wexford
Ellen Doyle 42 b Carlow
James Doyle 9 b Manchester
Joseph Doyle 6 b Manchester
George Robinson 18
Samuel Carney 23
Peter Timmons 24

Greyghost
Yes I believe it is although I am aware they never seemed to tell the truth when it came to their ages

And this the 1881 you site? So could have been born 1859-1864 approx. looking at the 2 census.

I'm not convinced it says he is married - he is ditto from the line above which is a bit of a mess and could as easily say Unmarried.

The relationship to the Head I think says Stranger? *(thought it was Strangler to start with, but there are too many of them!) So perhaps a bit like todays night shelters for those who haven't a home to go to but aren't sleeping on the street??

Joseph Doyle
in the 1881 England Census
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Name: Joseph Doyle
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: Night Assylum
Marital Status: Married
Education:
Occupation: Shop Porter Unemp
Registration district: Manchester
Sub registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3989
Folio: 31
Page Number: 1

Did Joseph have a middle name? Could this be him in 1881, all the ages tie up with the 1871:


Name:Joseph Hy. Doyle
Age:16
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1865
Relationship to Head:Son
Mother:Ellen Doyle
Gender:Male
Where born:Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Newton
County/Island:Lancashire
Street address:14 Monsall St

Occupation:Shorthand Clerk
Registration district:Prestwich

Ellen Doyle 52 , b Ireland, Widow, Stationer
James Ed. Doyle 19
Joseph Hy. Doyle 16

Manchester births 1861 +/- 5 years for Joseph Doyle's, although registration didn't always happen pre mid 1870's

DOYLE JOSEPH 1859 —
DOYLE JOSEPH HENRY 1864
DOYLE JOSEPH JAMES 1865
DOYLE WILLIAM JOSEPH 1862

Potty
I did see that and wondered if it was one and the same but on the marriage cert to my get grandmother he does not declare a middle name neither does the death record I believe to be him so that was why I was unsure of that record
Grey ghost
Although the birth record you have found for William Joseph Doyle 1862 could be him is actually the name of my father born 1937 so would tie in with using family names etc :-\

Is this the marriage you are looking at - in Derby? If so, and the 1911 census is them, his age is now making him born 10 years earlier?

Name: Joseph Doyle
Registration Year: 1895
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Derby
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 970
Records on Page:
Name
Mary Ellen Bancroft
Joseph Doyle
Philip Newbold
Rebecca Whittaker

-----------------------------------
Remainder of family born Derby

Name: Joseph Doyle
Age in 1911: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Derby
Search Photos: Search for 'Derby' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address: 60 Shaftesbury St Derby
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: General Labourer
Registration district: Derby
Registration District Number: 435
Sub-registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Piece: 20908
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Doyle 59
Mary Ellen Doyle 45
Joseph Doyle 16
Ann Doyle 13
John Doyle 10
James Doyle

What does he give as his father's occupation on his marriage cert? I see that in 1901 he gives a middle name of Cyril and that is also on the Baptism of his son Joseph Cyril:


Name:Joseph Cyril Doyle
Age:44
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1857
Relation to Head:Head
Gender:Male
Spouse:Mary Ellen Doyle
Birth Place:Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Derby

Joseph Cyril Doyle 44
Mary Ellen Doyle 38
Joseph Cyril Doyle 5
Ann Doyle 2
John Edward Doyle 3/12

Grey ghost
This is what I mean I do believe that they are one and the same on both documents but on his marriage cert to Mary Ellen Bancroft in 1895 he declares that he is 34 years old and a widower !!! Mary Ellen states her age as 25 years and a spinster The marriage is at Derby Register office

Is this worth a look? There is a Samuel J Barton on the 1911 census in Derby aged 50 The marriage certificate might state widowed, divorced etc. Although divorce was rare

England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription

First name(s) MARY E
Last name DOYLE
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1917
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ MARY E DOYLE married
SAMUEL J BARTON
Spouse's last name BARTON
District DERBY
District number -
County Derbyshire
Country England
Volume 7B
Page 1160
------------------------------------

Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription

First name(s) Mary Ellen
Last name Doyle
Marriage year 1917
Parish Register Office
Place Derby
Spouse's first name Samuel Joseph
Spouse's last name Barton
Reference DU/97/017
Register Office 394
County Derbyshire
Country England
Record set Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index

The one who arrived USA in 1917 aboard the St. Paul says that he was born Dublin, Ireland: Also he had been in USA previously from 1892 - August 1916.

Joseph Doyle

in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
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Name: Joseph Doyle
Arrival Date: 7 Oct 1917
Birth Date: abt 1860
Birth Location: Ireland
Birth Location Other: dublin
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: Irish
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: St Paul
Search Ship Database: Search for the St Paul in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
56 Olive St Crewton Derby, Derby, Derbyshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Samuel John Barton Head Married Male Fitters Labourer Loco M R 50 1861 Derbys Melbourne
Catherine Barton Wife Married Female - 49 1862 Derbys Melbourne
Ida Barton Daughter Single Female Hosiery Hand - Runner On 15 1896 Derbys Crewton
Joseph Barton Son - Male School 12 1899 Derbys Crewton

------------------------------------
England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription
Print transcription View image
First name(s) CATHERINE
Last name BARTON
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1861
Age 53
Death quarter 3
Death year 1914
District DERBY
County Derbyshire
Volume 7B
Page 566

???

Barton Household (7 People)
56 Beatty Street , Derby C.B., Derbyshire, England

Mary Ellen's Age would fit more with her declared age at marriage to Joseph

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Samuel J Barton 04 May 1860 Male Fitter Retired Married 238 1
Mary E Barton 13 Sep 1871 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 238 2
Frank J Woolley 13 Mar 1901 Male General Labourer Heavy Worker Married 238 3
Ann Eley (Woollety) 01 Jun 1898 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 238 4
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Joseph Woolley 13 Mar 1935 Male At School Single 238 6
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

---------------------------------------------
and with her birth registration
England & Wales births 1837-2006 Transcription

First name(s) MARY ELLEN
Last name BANCROFT
Birth year 1871
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District DERBY
County Derbyshire
Country England
Volume 7B
Page 432

Samuel Barton is Mary Ellen second husband who she marries in 1917

The Joseph Doyle that I have found who died in Ohio in A Salvation Army place states that his mother was Ellen Doyle née Leonard which is correct

Potty
He gives his fathers occupation as ?elastic weaver deceased

Potty
Joseph gives his occupation as a Railway labourer
Mary Ellen also stats she is a widow on her second marriage cert to Samuel Barton :-(

What proof have you of Joseph's age please?

His birth year is different on the 1901 and 1911 census.

Looking at the shipping record, he gives his occupation as Machinist as is 57, 2 years younger than in the 1911 - are you sure this is the same Joseph?

Maybe in 1891?

In 1911 his birth year is 1852

Joseph Doyle
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Litchurch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 56
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2735
Folio: 31
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Brane 28
Alexander Brane 26
Eugene Brane 28
Florence Brane 18
James Brane 73
Joseph Doyle 39

Have you eliminated this man?

1871

Joseph Doyle
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: St Werburgh
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Derby
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Household schedule number: 47
Piece: 3568
Folio: 65
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
George Wheatley 45
Ann Wheatley 39
George Wheatley 18
Sarah Wheatley 14
Maria Wheatley 9
Herbert Wheatley 11
James Wheatley 17
Joseph Doyle 20