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Thank you all for your input into my query. Obviously Maria Cox/Smith moved to London before 1891 when she got into trouble with the police, and I thank you for this information. She was still taking lodgers in 1891 in London, but moved back to Portsmouth before 1901 and again lived in 29 King street. She did not have any occupation in 1901 and also in 1911 was still living in 29 King Street and it does not have any lodgers and no information of it still being a Public house. All her children seemed to have got on in their lives being clerks in a brewery and in the post office.

I will never know anything about Charlotte Harriet Green and her sister Mary I am sure, although I have been in contact with the family of her sisters family who moved to Australia and they had no information regarding their Aunts.

I also thank you for finding out the terrible death of Emma's first husband William Cripps. I must now start checking the local Hampshire newspapers more often.

Thank you all once again.

Regards Chris

(looking at 1881 for that address, matches John Shaw on below)

Edits (aah!, that is St. John's Ward, other 1881 Smith, St. Paul Ward)

(thought that seemed odd!)

Chris :)

http://pubshistory.com/Hampshire/Portsea/Shamrock.shtml

(Shamrock Tavern, 29 King Street, Portsea, Hampshire)

1875/William Mann/../../../Post Office Directory ****

1881/John Shaw/Licensed Victualler/43/Sheffield, York/Census ****
1881/Emma Shaw/Wife/41/Bambury, Oxford/Census

Sorry, I thought I had answered that. Her address was 29 King Street, Portsea, the same as Maria and her family of children.

Christine I understand that you've traced Charlotte Cox/ Smith through the census, but what was the address on her birth certificate?

Unfortunately Charles Green in 1871 was not my Charles Green. My Charles was born in Upton on Severn, Worcestershire. There also were two at about the same time. I will have to do more searching on him I think.

Thank you Chris, I have never found a death of a William Cripps between 1871 and 1879 to match his age, the death on the Belarophone seems to be possibly the one. I wonder why it was not registered anywhere?

All of the census' are correct, Maria Cox became Maria Smith (though no marriage) and eventually married Alfred Tout (a lodger in 1891). The children chose whatever surname they wanted from these two when they were older, and 1891 census has a son with the surname Cox, whereas Charlotte was Smith.

On her probate 1914 her 2 children Harry and Frank were named as Cox. Harry was always known as Smith and Frank seemed to keep the Cox as his probate shows in 1920.

I have found out so much, but cannot work out how I would find out if Charlotte Harriet Cox to Maria Cox had the same birth date as Charlotte Harriet Green to Charles Green?

(one below for reference 1939, I presume)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

104 Methuen Road , Portsmouth C.B., Hampshire
Charlotte H Cole 10 Feb 1876 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Alfred A Cole 13 Feb 1876 Male Builders Labourer Married
Emma J E Culliford 14 May 1898 Female Domestic Servant Widowed


Marriages Mar 1895 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
COLE Alfred Arthur Portsea 2b 697
Green Charlotte Harriett Portsea 2b 697


(google search brings below)

http://www.tribalpages.com/tribe/familytree?uid=chris52&surname=Cole

Cole, Alfred Arthur, Born Feb 13 1876 in 5 Alma Terrace, Eastney, Portsmouth, Hampshire, Died Sep 14 1944 in 104 Methuen Road, Portsmouth, Hampshire - Wife Charlotte was present at the death

Christine,

What was the address of Charlotte Harriet Cox' birth certificate? Does it match the 1881 census above?

Malyon, if you read Christine's earlier post, you'll see that she thinks Charlotte and her mother Maria went by the name of Smith.

Presumably this family:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
29, King, Portsea, Portsea Island, Hampshire, England
Maria Smith Head Widow Female 34 1847 Lodging House Keeper Emsworth, Sussex, England
Harry Smith Son Single Male 15 1866 Clerk Portsea, Hampshire, England
Alfred Smith Son Single Male 11 1870 Scholar Portsea, Hampshire, England
Mabel Smith Daughter Single Female 9 1872 Scholar Portsea, Hampshire, England
Frank Smith Son Single Male 7 1874 Scholar Portsea, Hampshire, England
Charlotte Smith Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Scholar Portsea, Hampshire,
Nicholas Philips Lodger Single Male 22 1859 Assistant Officer Of Excise Maker, Cornwall,
Frank Lightfoot Lodger Single Male 21 1860 Assistant Officer Of Excise Turvey, Bedfordshire,
Chas O Niell Lodger Single Male 23 1858 Assistant Officer Of Excise Ireland
Arthur Smith Lodger Single Male 20 1861 Assistant Officer Of Excise Mitcham, Surrey,

you say charlotte h cox is on the 1881 census I cant find it perhaps she like you say is charlotte h green I see no marriage or death for a charlotte h cox

1891 census
Mary Green
England and Wales Census, 1891
Name
Mary Green
Event Type
Census
Event Date
1891
County
Hampshire
Parish
Portsea
Ecclesiastical Parish
ALL SAINTS
Registration District
Portsea Island
Residence Note
Abercrombie Street
Gender
Female
Age
12
Marital Status
Single

ccupation
Scholar
Relationship to Head of Household
Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated)
1879
Birthplace
Hampshire, England
Page Number
2
Registration Number
RG12
Piece/Folio
853/ 67
Household
Role
Gender
Age
Birthplace
Charles Green
Head
M
53
Worcestershire, England
Mary Green
Daughter
F
12
Hampshire, England
Emma Green
Daughter
F
10
Hampshire, England
Edith Green
Daughter
F
8
Hampshire, England
Charles Green
Son
M
6
Hampshire, England
Edward Cripps
Lodger
M
18
Hampshire, England

(probably husband of Emma Cripps below)

Chris :)

11 May 1872 - Hampshire Advertiser - Southampton, Hampshire, England

(Orders have been sent from the Admiralty to the dockyard officials at Portsmouth, for an inquiry into the cause of the accident on Board the 'Bellerophen' steamship, on the 4th April, which resulted in William Cripps, a stoker, who was fatally scalded through the carrying away of the cover of the feed escape valve, which caused the steam and hot water to be thrown into the engine room where the unfortunate man was on duty.


http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7945370

(a possible, William)


http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7937013

(if Charles Green on below)

1871 (Find My Past)
First name(s) Charles
Last name Green
Relationship Stoker
Marital status (Blank)
Gender Male
Age 34
Birth year 1837
Birth county as transcribed GLOUCESTERSHIRE
County Hampshire
Registration district Portsea Island
Vessel name Duke Of Wellington, Of Portsmouth Harbour
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 1134
Folio 214
Page 37

Yes, Emma died in 1890.

Your Portsmouth Evening News article about Maria Cox is priceless. Maria was living in 29 King Street as a Lodging House Keeper up until 1891 when she had moved to London with the children only to return before 1901.

(no idea if they relates, but saw below!)

Chris :)

13 March 1890 - Portsmouth Evening News - Portsmouth, Hampshire

DEATHS.
Green - on the 3rd instant, Abercrombie-street, Landport, Emma, wife of Mr. Charles Green, aged 50 years.


Deaths Mar 1890 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------
Green Emma 50 Portsea 2b 335


05 March 1890 - Portsmouth Evening News - Portsmouth, Hampshire

PORTSMOUTH POLICE COURT.
Charge against a Landlady. - Maria Cox, the keeper of the Duke of Edinburgh beerhouse, in Queen-street, Portsea, was summoned for having been intoxicated upon her own premises.


23 April 1890 - Portsmouth Evening News - Portsmouth, Hampshire

PORTSMOUTH POLICE COURT.
Maria Cox, the keeper the Duke of Edinburgh, Queen street, Portsea, was summoned for selling Lquor at twenty minutes before midnight, on the 9th inst.


Edits (1881, at Duke, below)

73, Queen Street, Portsea, Portsea Island, Hampshire

Emma A Creber Head Widow Female 38 1843 Beer Retailer Torquay, Devon, England


03 August 1881 - Portsmouth Evening News - Portsmouth, Hampshire

WANTED for a Beerhouse, respectable person as General Servant, age about 25. Mrs. Creber, Duke of Edinburgh, Queen-street, Portsea.

Greyghost, you have found the family in 1881 and the marriages of her "parents" and the mothers previous marriage.

I have searched for the birth of a Charlotte or Harriet with surnames of Eyers and Cripps for the mothers maiden name and previous married name.

Her sister Mary I have checked out and there is only 1 in Portsea from 1877 and 1879 and I ordered that birth certificate and the parents do not fit to anyone in the family.

The mother of Charlotte Harriet Cox was Maria Cox who had 5 children with no marriage, charlotte being the last child. In 1881 she stated her name was Smith and so were her children, although 1871 she was Cox and the children were all registered as Cox. In 1891 she states she is Smith and is a widow, the children are again Smith. I have never found a marriage and she is living on her own means. From being an only parent, she died with over £500. Her children seemed to choose Cox or Smith as their surname in later life.

A real puzzler I think.

Ok, thanks Margaret.

:-)

Prickles, on Ancestry the birth for Charlotte Harriet Cox is the Jan/Feb/March quarter but when you click on the image it gives you the April/May/June quarter.

Think it's a birth for a Charlotte (Harriet) Green that can't be found.

If Charlotte was born pre the marriage of Charles and Emma, there is a "choice" for her birth surname.

Green - if Charles and Emma said they were married when the birth was registered or if he was present at the registration and admitted paternity.

Cripps - if that was Emma's given surname at the time of the birth. Children were presumed to be the child of the husband even if he had died years before!

Or anything else that was dreamt up !!

The maiden surname of the Mother on the birth certificate should be the maiden name but is sometimes mistakenly given as a previous name.

Charlotte Harriet Cox is on tha image on FreeBMD. Also didn't Chris say that she had sent for that birth certificate?

Hi Christine

Did the details from the birth cert you purchased for Charlotte Harriet Cox.......fit with the parents on the 1881 census?

CHARLES GREEN and EMMA JANE CRIPPS ..... or different parents?