Find Ancestors

Dear mgnv, that is great info. Thanks very much for this. I don't think I will ever become an expert researcher, like some of the folks who have helped me, but it is good to know that I can take another look at the registrations and indexes that I have saved and maybe find info that I had previously missed, especially on the ones where I am stuck. Thanks again!

S - re 8:11 30/10/16 post:
"The wedding ref ..again, can I ask if these are local records and if they will differ from the gro."

Yes - these are the local registrations - they will not differ from the GRO copy, although the local index must differ from the GRO index, if only in the ref.
The indexes can differ in content - e.g., a b.cert has a col 10 which allows a change of name (typically after baptism) - note, the law requires that a birth be rego'ed, not that a child be named, so you can get things like:

Births Sep 1837 (>99%)
CLEWORTH Female Leigh 21 347

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1837
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
CLEWORTH Sarah MARSH Culcheth Wigan & Leigh CUL/1/2

The index was made at a difft time, so the later addition of a forename nappears in the local index but not the GRO index.
B's & D's have to give the subdistrict, maybe in a coded form (CUL - here decoded as Culceth) and they also chose to give the mum's maiden surname pre-1911q3.
They might also choose to give the age at death pre-1866.
The 2nd element of the ref indicates this is the 1st Culceth rego (a local b/d rego has 500 entries and 100 pages).
The last element is either a page number or an entry number (it's entry in this subdistrict).
It often is the page number, except for marrs, where it's nearly always entry #, so one knows who wed whom pre-1912.

The local rego is the one signed by the informant for Bs & Ds, but most local registery offices lack the capability of putting digitized images on official certs.
(Both Irelands will sell the raw "uncertified" images at a reduced rate, as does Scotland (for its older images).

Marrs are a bit difft - here authorized keepers of rego's (which pre-1898 was just the established church, jews and quakers, plus the registrars) held the original official marr rego's.
When full and checked, the church rego's are deposited in some archive, typically the county records office.
Each quarter, the authorized keeper of a church rego sends a copy of that quarter's marrs to the local registrar who keeps a copy of all the official church rego's in his district.
The registrar sends a copy of all the marrs in his district, including marrs in his own rego's, to the GRO.
Pre-1898, a registrar would have to attend a non-conformist marr with his official rego for the couple to sign, but after 1898, non-conformists could apply to become an authorized keeper of an official rego. It might take a couple of years for the congregation to opt to apply, and for the approval process, but by 1905, the only major sect who chose not to apply (until 1980-ish) was the RCs,
Marrs in England/Wales (and Ireland) had to take place in registered buildings - if these were churches, then the church could keep it's own private, unofficial marr rego whose contents might not follow the official form - this was especially true of RCs who latinized forenames.

Here's an example:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50

and the OPR transcription:
Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO

{NB Jacobi is a Latinized version of James]


An official non-conformist marr entry from an attending registrar's rego will look pretty much like a regular church marr entry, except that the registrar will have signed it.

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If you've got a copy of a marr cert from the GRO, you can tell if it took place in a non-conformist church, and so know where there might be an unofficial marr entry.

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For online local indexes, see: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd

There is an 1890s map of Shetland (and every Scottish county) showing parishes at:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/

Hi AustinQ, Albert certainly made the family tree interesting. Although she was still listed as married in 39 , Albert had already moved on to Ellen Pocock, by the time Mary's fourth child was born. Dad said her mum committed suicide because she was in enormous pain from an ulcerous leg that she used to clean every day with lye! She didnt fully know then what the National Health Service was about to be able to do for her??! Thanks for offers with help on the Sinclairs but I have been lucky with them...because they were from Shetland I have managed to go back a fair way with them and again have been incontact with new rellies. Albert's Harrises and my mums McKinley/Mackinlays are in the frame at the moment as there is confusion around them both but I will keep plugging away with the help I have been given here.
Thanks very much for all the stuff you found about the incorrigible Albert????

I hope it helps. You have a fascinating family- far more interesting than mine!

You probably have all the information on your Gran- what a tough life she had; losing a brother so young, her mother's suicide and, the death of 2 children. She must have been a tough cookie. If you need any help with the Sinclairs just shout.

Oh, and just to note- Mary was still listed as married in 1939
1939
Sinclair Household (4 People) 25 Parton Street , West Hartlepool C.B., Durham, England

James Sinclair 13 Feb 1870 Male Shipyard Labourer Married
Georgina Sinclair 17 Oct 1876 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married Mary (E) Brooke (Robinson) 02 Oct 1902 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
James Brooke 23 Jan 1928 Male At School Single
One closed record
-----------------------------------------------------

So Mary married again too

Yes my grandmother was Mary Sinclair married in Cockermouth in 1924! Altho without a divorce cert I guess this was invalid. My Brooke cousins will be very interested in your findings. Thanks very much. I wish I had your research skills.

S- They did marry!!!

This in the paper:

The Era - Saturday 27 March 1909

MARRIAGES:
Brooke- Selwyn-Carr. March 16 at The High Church Inverness by the Rev, Donald McLeod, Albert E Brooke of Edmund Tearle's Company to Mabel Selwyn-Carr daughter of Dr Selwyn-Carr of Westoe, South Shields.
---------------------------------------------------

Marriage is on Scotlands People:

BROOKE ALBERT EDWARD
SELWYN-CARR MABEL
1909 098/ 51 Inverness

Albert is listed as an Actor, 28- son of Walter Brooke and Eliza Harris
Mabel as 25 Actress, daughter of Douglas Selwyn Carr and Emma Parkes.

I've sent you the image of the marriage cert. It's a little difficult to read, but definitely them. So this would be why he lied on further marriages- as he was already married!

Incidentally- was his marriage to your Gran in 1923 or 1924? Was you Gran Mary Sinclair?

I'm off to work this morning, I'll pop back later :)

Morning S,

I've sent a PM and attached a copy of the Police Gazette.

I don't know if you have access to Find My Past, but by searching Institutions and Organisations under Bertha's various names there are lots of results for her criminal activity which seemed to start in 1894.

Oh and we have bertha as Mabel Selwyn Carr as well!

Hi AustinQ, the only article I dont ha e is the Jan 22 Police Gazette 1931, that list Bertha/Mabel/Ellen Parks other names, can u tell me where I might get a copy please!

Hi AustinQ, Thanks for this?? Some of it we have but not all. Altho Albert may have been charged with desertion and Mabel may have finally fallen foul of the law for bigamy, we dont think they were actually married to each other. We know that she did have 3 children by him and though she said four, it turned out that Sydney was not Alberts. I was lucky enough to find these new cousins of mine and we have been in touch. If there was a marriage cert with Mabel, my cousins would be very happy to hear that. I am sorry I misled you about Vera (It wasnt intentional I should have said we couldnt find any certs for the myriad of 'wives' that he had before my grandma! ) Albert stayed with Vera until his death we suspect because they had no children! ?? Sadly we only found out about Albert a few years after my father died and so he never knew that he had several brothers and another sister.
Albert was the trigger for our forays into finding our family tree because my dad was 2ish when he left and was told he had died. We wanted to find out more about him for Dad. It took a long time as most of the info that we knew about Alberts was slightly inaccurate! Now his mum is causing similar difficulties! Still they have certainly kept us busy and entertained!

Just reading through the thread again- I know you have a lot of information on Albert, but you said the only marriage certificate you had found for him was in 1923 to your Grandmother. I'm now intrigued!

Is this not him?

Brooke Household (3 People) 61 Heathfield Road , Hitchin U.D., Hertfordshire, England
Albert E H Brooke 30 Sep 1889 Male Millinery Salesman Own Account Married
Vera Brooke 29 Oct 1899 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Esther C Brunton 07 Oct 1862 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed

and his marriage to Vera?

First name(s) ALBERT E H
Last name BROOKE
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1937
Spouse: VERA TRUMAN
Spouse's last name TRUMAN
District PADDINGTON
County London
Volume 1A Page 222
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Jarrow Express - Friday 22 January 1915
Wife Desertion
Well Known Actor Charged
Albert Edward Brooke, an actor, stated to be at present appearing at Salford, was summoned to appear before South Shields magistrates yesterday on a charge of having deserted his wife, Mabel Brooke, at present residing in South Shields...

The article goes on to say that Mabel and Albert were both in the theatrical profession and had been married 6 years. They had 4 children- the eldest 5 years of age, the youngest a baby of 7 months who was blind.
2 of the children were with Mabel's mother, another child was being kept by a lady in Gateshead, and the baby was with Mabel.
-----------------------------------

Possibly Mabel in 1911?:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
40 Eleanor Street South Shields, South Shields, Durham, England
Joseph John Dockwray Head Married Male Architect 53 1858 South Shields
Sarah Mary Dockwray Wife Married Female - 55 1856 South Shields
Charles Walter Dockwray Son Single Male Actor 24 1887 South Shields
Hilda Dockwray Daughter Single Female - 17 1894 South Shields
William Dockwray Son Single Male Engineers Apprentice 16 1895 South Shields
Mary Jessie Dockwray Daughter Single Female Dressmaker 15 1896 South Shields
Richard Henry Dockwray Son - Male At School 10 1901 South Shields
Mabel Bertha Brooke Boarder Married Female Actress 32 1879 South Shields
Mabel Audrey Brooke Daughter - Female - 0 1911 South Shields
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Interestingly this Mabel WAS married in 1909 according to a bigamy charge in 1928:

Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail - Friday 22 June 1928

BIGAMY CHARGE
Bertha Mabel Brooke (52) pleaded guilty to a charge of bigamy at Sunderland, and asked that two other similar offences should be taken into consideration...

The article goes on to say that she was first married in 1909 and had 4 children in that marriage. She separated from her first husband in 1915.She then married at Stockton in 1918 with a man called Dunn who divorced her in 1924. She married again in 1925 at Tynemouth with a wireless operator called Johnson (Marrying under the name Mabel Irene O'Hara). She went through another marriage in 1927 Sunderland with another wireless operator called Amiss.

Speaking of her first marriage, she stated that her husband left her to live with a woman named Galloway. There was an attempt at reconciliation in 1913, but while together there was a letter received from the Galloway woman, putting an end to the marriage. The short reconciliation produced another child in 1914- that child was born in prison and was unfortunately blind.

The Judge remarked that her record was deplorable and sentenced her to 9 months in prison.
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You probably have the info- from what I can tell Mabel/Bertha was Bertha Ellen Parkes- but, according to The Police Gazette January 22, 1931 she went by a wide variety of names- including:-

Bertha Ellen Parks
Mabel Irene Brook
Beatrice Kent
Irene Laurie
Beatrice Chambers
Bertha Chambers
Cissie Mabel Carr
Ethel Dillon
Edith Dunn
Mabel Wynn George
Frances Corfield

There is no obvious marriage in 1909 for Albert and Bertha/ Mabel, although I suspect there was a marriage- but finding whatever names they used is a challenge.

If you don't have access to the articles let me know and I'll send them to you.

Just in case you don't have it- the original image of Eliza's baptism gives DOB as 6 June 1865

First name(s) Eliza
Last name Harris
Birth date 06 Jun 65
Baptism year 1868
Baptism date 01 Jul 1868
Denomination Anglican
Baptism place Landkey
Father's first name(s) James
Mother's first name(s) Martha
County Devon
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Archive reference 1951A/PR/1/5
Record set Devon Baptisms

If the Eliza in the workhouse is the correct family, which seems likely, her family must have gone through some hard times.

Her mother, Martha, appears in the paper several times for failing to send the younger children to school. Martha remarried in 1878 to Thomas Burnell.

This is her in 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
5, Pugsleys Court, Barnstaple, Devon, England
Thomas Burnell Head Married Male 80 1801 Laborer Barnstaple, Devon,
Martha Burnell Wife Married Female 49 1832 - Fremington, Devon, England
William Burnell Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Barnstaple, Devon, England
Alice Harris Daughter In Law Single Female 14 1867 Domestic Servant Landkey, Devon,
Bessie Harris Daughter In Law Single Female 18 1863 Charwoman Landkey, Devon,
--------------------------------------------

Her son, William died in 1884: (born William Burnell Harris)

First name(s) WILLIAM HARRIS
Last name BURNELL
Gender Male
Birth year 1875
Age 9
Death quarter 3
Death year 1884
District BARNSTAPLE
County Devon
Volume 5B Page 280

And, despite the age being a little out I think Martha died in 1886:

First name(s) MARTHA
Last name BURNELL
Gender Female
Birth year 1834
Age 52
Death quarter 2
Death year 1886
District BARNSTAPLE
County Devon
Volume 5B Page 339

Thanks AustinQ, I am totally amazed and in awe of what all of you kind people have been able to find to help me find Eliza

Interestingly, the Harriet C A Jackson/ Jenkinson that Eliza was with in the 1881, died in Derby 1889 at her daughter's residence.

I know Derby is not exactly close to Leeds, but it's a lot further north than London or Devon. I wondered if Eliza travelled up as Harriet's maid?

Also worth noting is the baptism of Albert in 1888 has a P beside the entry, indicating it was a private baptism.

Another thought- perhaps being in the family way she went to stay with relatives. I can't see any obvious connection at the moment, but will post just in case they are relatives:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Belle Vue Road, Leeds, Yorkshire,

Thos L Harris Head Married Male 48 1843 Books Publishers Agent Landkey, Devon,
Amelia Harris Wife Married Female 52 1839 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Florence A Harris Daughter Single Female 24 1867 - Bristol
Henry W Saunders Brother In Law Single Male 55 1836 - Bristol

The other consideration I have is that she was married to a Richard Harris before Walter, tho I have found no marriage record ,and that her maiden name was something else altogether! I haven't found all info on certificates terribly reliable, so just because it says she was a spinster on Walters wedding cert doesnt mean she was... altho it list him as a widower!.. If Richard really existed!

Thanks Argyllgran. This is my problem... tying my Eliza Harris to a concrete link before she marries Walter Brook(e)

Long shot for Eliza / Louis(a) ??

Pilton is now a suburb of Barnstaple:

Elizabeth Harries
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Harries
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Harries
Mother's name: Cline Harries
Gender: Female
Where born: Pilton, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Chittlehampton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Registration district: South Molton
Sub-registration district: South Molton
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household schedule number: 73
Piece: 2181
Folio: 114
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
James Harries 52 - farmer
Cline Harries 44 - ( Eliza on image) - born Parkham, Devon
John Harries 17
Thomas Harries 12
James Harries 9
Emsley Harries 11 - Emiley on image
Elizabeth Harries 6
Sarah A Harries 4
Mary Topham 18 - servant
Elizabeth Bale 40 - servant
Mary Jane Parsons 18 - visitor


EDIT:

In 1861 mother's name is Clara:

John Ford Harris
in the 1861 England Census
Name: John Ford Harris
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: 1854
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Harris
Mother's name: Clara Harris
Gender: Male
Where born: Pilton, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Pilton
Town: Barnstaple
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Registration district: Barnstaple
Sub-registration district: Braunton
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 131
Piece: 1494
Folio: 88
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
James Harris 38 - farmer
Clara Harris 30 - Parkham, Devon
John Ford Harris 7
Emily Ann F Harris 1
Thomas Fred Harris 3
Richard Headen 19 - servant
Thomas Croke 15 - servant
Eliza Trick 19 - servant

Thanks for finding this Christina. It is great to have something to go on

Having just read through your thread again, I see that Albert was given the middle name of Jackson.

When a child is born outside a marriage, the father's surname is very often given as a middle name.

I had thought he might be connected to the Harriet Jackson on the 1881 with servant Eliza Harris b.1865 in Devon, but Harriet's name has been written down incorrectly, and was really Jenkinson. So no connection there. Though I believe this is probably your Eliza.