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Honestly I cant thank you all enough. I wish I'd done this when my mum was still alive. This has always been a mystery in our family and now I can put it to rest and hopefully find an aunt or cousins that maybe have no idea I, my family and other aunts and uncles even exist. Thanks again xxxx

Well done Choccy and Alviegal - didn't think to just put Betha M 1937 in a search having found her under Fletcher/Sweeney - and if I had, then the 2 surnames would have come up - doh !! Think I was going round in circles .........easy. It was getting late last night and I had to give up before chasing 1939 entries with the given birthdate.
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Dawn - I posted yesterday -

But there are 6 Fletcher/Sweeney births between 1930 and 1937.
1930/31 in Stepney, 1933/1935 in Romford, 1934 Surrey and 1937 Southampton.

Either all not yours, or they were together longer than you thought, or any child born after the split would have Mother's married name (unless the actual Father admitted paternity) and the maiden name would be also that of the mother. Is that clear as mud? Or a second marriage for the Mother.

Looking at the first name of the 1937 birth I would think from the first name that she is Betha's child.

All births shown on https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
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So the Father did admit paternity and Betha was registered under both her Mother's married name and that of the actual Father.

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As for the 1939 register put up by Alviegal - when you look at the actual image it doesn't sat BeRtha but Betha. I'll report that. There is 1 closed record on that 1939 - probably young Betha. Betha rather than Bertha or Betty might really have given the game away earlier.

Did Betha and George ever marry or just live as man and wife. Even though she marries Thomas Gibson as Betty (another slight change of name) McGovern and dies as Betty.
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A guess is that Betha Junior was known as McGovern if that is her closed on the 1939 and her Mum married Thomas as McGovern. Could be wrong of course.

Thats a pretty good match. Exact birth date. I'll try find more on her. thank you so much for all your help. Really appreciate it. I've been looking for a long time.

still think that's her birth I posted middle name mable born 4th quarter if you could send for the marriage cert for bertha and Thomas to see their ages

Births Dec 1937

>>>>Fletcher Betha M Sweeney Southampton 2c 96


Births Dec 1937

>>>>McGovern Betha M Sweeney Southampton 2c 96


Deaths Jun 1941

McGovern George 33 Woolwich 1d 1424


Marriages Dec 1943

Gibson Thomas S McGovern Dartford 2a 1793
McGovern Betty M Gibson Dartford 2a 1793


England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: Betty Mabel Gibson

Birth Date: 12 Oct 1909

Date of Registration: Jun 1991

Age at Death: 81

Registration district: Mansfield

Inferred County: Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire

Volume: 8

Page: 241

Going by the birthdate, you have these 2 ladies. The first one has the name McGoven crossed out and Gibson added. Same goes for her first name, Bertha has been scored out.


McGoven Household (2 People) 142 Radnor Avenue , Bexley M.B., Kent, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Bertha (Betty M) Gibson (Mcgoven) 12 Oct 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 71 2
George McGoven 19 Feb 1908 Male Precision Borer And Centre Lathe Turner (Engineering) Married 71 1


I was looking at this one yesterday but can't find a marriage.


Malyan Household (3 People) 40 Bayhall Road , Royal Tunbridge Wells M.B., Kent, England


First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Bertha M Hollamby 12 Oct 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 107 5
Horace A Malyan 14 May 1906 Male Milk Roundsman Married 107 1
Carrie Malyan ? Nov 1911 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 107 2

She also has May as a middle name.



England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) BERTHA MAY
Last name HOLLAMBY
Gender Female
Birth day 12
Birth month 10
Birth year 1909
Age -
Death quarter 1
Death year 1990
District Swale


EDIT Carrie's maiden name was Palmer and I've found a Hollamby/ Palmer birth in Tunbridge Wells so Bertha was possibly a Palmer.
EDIT Now confirmed, Bertha May Palmer married Frederick Hollamby so we can rule this one out.

None of them seem to be her going by birth date.
I've ordered her mothers death certificate, hoping it will name her on it. Her mum died in 1948. She also remarried and became Emily Bowers but was buried with her first husband George.

George Richard Sweeney died in 1936 and she didn't seem to be mentioned in his funeral notice unless she'd already changed her name. Her 4 young children were mentioned in the funeral notice.

I was born in Australia, so I have no idea of where area's are. I'm grateful for any help with that also.

EDIT: I was still typing when greyghost was posting...

Birthdate on the 1939 register seems to exclude the Bertha M Flrtcher who married Leslie Firth in 1938....

Firth Household (4 People) 48 Maryport Road , Luton M.B., Bedfordshire, England

Bertha M Firth 27 Aug 1911 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 78 2
Leslie Firth 02 Apr 1914 Male Engineering Draughtsman Married 78 1
Willie Firth 18 Jan 1888 Male Shoe & Boot Repairer Married 78 4
Amelia Firth 22 Sep 1890 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 78 5

Using the male surnames from those marriages and remaining in the general areas -

and looking at births, deaths and 1939 register -

This looks like one option for Denis Else -

Dennis Else b 1912 Belper RD, Derbyshire died 1991 Belper RD
His will might name relatives https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar

Bertha Muriel Else b 4.4.1913 died Derby 1971.
She is on the 1939 register in the Shardlow, RD, Derbyshire. Single. Amongst others there is also a John Fletcher b 1876

and the other
Denis Else b 1923 Wirksworth RD died 2004 Derby
In Wirksworth 1939 with parents
No definite marriage found
He would be very much younger than Bertha Senior or quite a bit older than Bertha Junior

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Firth -
1939 - Bertha M Firth b 27.8.1911 and Leslie Firth born 2.4.1914 are in Luton where the marriage took place

So looking at DOB's neither Bertha yours. Often birth years were changed but day and month stayed the same.

Ok so thats not her on the 1939 register. Bertha was born 12/10/1909.
She may have remarried however I doubt she would have married someone 24 years younger than herself.

Theres these two marriages I'm unsure about.

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1938 (>99%)
Fletcher Bertha M Firth Luton 3b 1238 Scan available - click to view
Marriages Dec 1948 (>99%)
Fletcher Bertha M Else Ilkeston 3a 822 Scan available - click to view

The male person who married in 1956 was possibly born 1933 Birmingham??

From the 1939 register - That Bertha born 1892 and single.

Price Household (4 People)
356 Moseley Road , Birmingham C.B., Warwickshire, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Bertha Fletcher 12 Mar 1892 Female Domestic Worker Single 256 4
Herbert S Price 08 Aug 1886 Male Railway Clerk Single 256 1
Harold Ferneyhaugh 28 Mar 1881 Male Chef Single 256 2
Ellen Ferneyhaugh 13 Mar 1874 Female Boarding House Keeper Widowed 256 3

The 1939 register was taken of all people except Service men/women in England/Wales in September 1939. It formed a basis for National ID cards and then later the NHS. It was kept updated until around 1990. People born after 1915 are not shown (a closed record for privacy - 100 year rule) unless it is known they have died. It was updated over the years as people on it married, died etc. It was published a couple of years ago now and is updated as further proof of deaths are found.

there is a marriage in 1956 in birmingham

Fletcher Bertha M — — 1956 England & Wales Marriages 1837-2008 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

I found a Bertha M Fletcher on the electoral roll for 1935, 1939, 1945 & 1950. The name is Bertha May Fletcher. Address 356 Mosely rd Birmingham. She seems to be living alone or in a share house. I'll keep looking to try confirm its her.

Marjorie is my mum, Joyce, Evelyn and Thomas are all correct. Sylvia died and never knew about Betha in 1937. My mum told me she left when she was 5 being 1935. Maybe I need to order the birth certificate for 1937 Betha.

Looks like Sylvia died early -

Births Dec 1935 (>99%)
Fletcher Sylvia R Sweeney Romford 4a 788


Deaths Dec 1935 (>99%)
Fletcher Sylvia R 0 Romford 4a 584

I believe she had 5 children, one died. May have been pregnant when left maybe. Thats the correct marriage. Thanks for the help. I just keep hitting brick walls. Maybe she did remarry.

Only seeing 1 Fletcher/Sweeney marriage - (the 1 you mentioned, but in 1929) anywhere around the time - unless a marriage where the female had been previously married.

First name(s) THOMAS
Last name FLETCHER
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1929
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ THOMAS FLETCHER married
Bertha M Sweeney
Spouse's last name Sweeney
District Romford
District number -
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 1439

But there are 6 Fletcher/Sweeney births between 1930 and 1937.
1930/31 in Stepney, 1933/1935 in Romford, 1934 Surrey and 1937 Southampton.

Either all not yours, or they were together longer than you thought, or any child born after the split would have Mother's married name (unless the actual Father admitted paternity) and the maiden name would be also that of the mother. Is that clear as mud? Or a second marriage for the Mother.

Looking at the first name of the 1937 birth I would think from the first name that she is Betha's child.

All births shown on https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search

i dont think this is your bertha


1939 Register Transcription

Fletcher Household (2 People) 45 Selvage Lane , Hendon M.B., Middlesex, England
Attach to tree
View original image
Print
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Bertha M Fletcher 23 Aug 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 296 2
Bernard L Fletcher 31 Oct 1906 Male Agent Friendly Society Married 296 1

its like the electrol like we have now I did search for a death for bertha did not find any so perhaps she married again