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Thank you all :-)

That does seem to be it AustinQ, thanks for putting it plainly lol I was getting confuddled!

It's not helped by there being another family of Fishlocks ( also Joseph) in Southwark/Bermondsey areas, who 'should' be related ( in as much as they are lightermen like my Fishlocks in Chiswick ) but can't tie them in for certain.

So in 1891 William (born 1887) was staying with his Aunt's sister.

You've all been busy :-)

Joseph F is

father of William Griff Fishlock,
he is also father to Edward,
also brother to a William *
son of a William
uncle to a William.
gt uncle to a William, ( sometimes called William James, sometimes James William)
father of Arthur ( adopted by step aunt, step daughter of William with the *)
Grandfather of another Arthur ( son of William Griff)

Joseph is also uncle to John
who has a son William
who has a son William .....


LOL not so much 'where's Wally'? as Where's William? ;-)

Thanks, AQ - GRO doesn't think Groves is a "similar sounding" variation of Grove.
But it does seem to think it's "phonetically similar" - which I hadn't tried.

Their father, George, died the same year Phoebe was born- so perhaps they were in the workhouse in 1881?

Although Eliza/ Elizabeth is down as born Warwickshire in 1871- she was born Surrey:

GROVES, SARAH RAYNER
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 99

GROVE, GEORGE RAYER
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 121

GROVES, ELIZABETH JANE RAYNER
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 20

GROVE, PHOEBE RAYNER
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 56
----------------------------

Elizabeth's baptism:

Name: Elizabeth Jane Groves
Gender: Female
Born 24th October 1868
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Apr 1869
Baptism Place: Southwark St Saviour, Southwark, England
Father: George Groves (Labourer)
Mother: Mary Ann Groves
Abode: Princess Row

Phoebe is a mystery.

I don't see her in 1881 - nor her parents or siblings.

I can't see a marriage for her sister Elizabeth Carter/Carton nee Grove(s) , who's apparently married to a John Bennett by 1901. I don't see that marriage either.


Phoebe Grove
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Phoebe Grove
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation to Head: Sister-in-law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen Southwark
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 363
Folio: 130
Page Number: 13
Household schedule number: 110
Household Members:
Name Age
John Bennett 39
Elizabeth Bennett 32
James Bennett 6
Phoebe Grove 24


(They are not the John & Elizabeth Bennett living in Islington in 1911, married 18 years.)

Can't see Elizabeth's birth.

If she's the Eliza listed with George and Mary Ann in 1871 census, although the YOB matches, her birthplace has changed from Warwickshire in 1871, to Southwark in 1891 and 1901.

Probably posted somewhere (apologies!) but who is below?...

Chris :)

1901 (Find My Past)
Bridget Days Head Widow Female 28 1873 Marine Store Dealer Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Joseph Days Son Single Male 5 1896 - Newington, London, England
Florence Days Daughter Single Female 3 1898 - Newington, London, England
William Fishlock Servant Married Male 19 1882 Rag Sorter Newington, London, England
Jane Cope Servant Single Female 16 1885 Rag Sorter Newington, London, England
266, Tabard Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark


Notes Phoebe Marriage to Samuel William Bragg 1902, also Tabard Street (107).


Below Banns, come up on Ancestry, London

William Griffishloch (Bachelor)
20 Jun 1880 All Saints, Walworth Sarah (Grove. Spinster)
(13th Jun 6th Jun)
(1879 - 1882)


(anybody else missing the 'Borough' selection box, on Ancestry, London, since their new additions?, or is it mine that's gone, lol)

Don't think you have the right Sarah Grove- her father is listed as George- same as Pheobe:

England, Births & Baptisms
First name(s) Phoebe
Last name Groves
Gender Female
Baptism date 09 Jul 1876
Place Southwark
County Surrey
Father's name(s) George Groves (Street singer)
Mother's name(s) Mary Ann Groves
Abode: 67 Little Surrey Street
--------------------------------------

There is this transcribed record on Ancestry- it has been transcribed a year out, but I'm certain it is the same marriage for Sarah and William:

Name: Saral Grove
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 Dec 1886
Marriage Place: St Michael and All Angels, Southwark, Southwark, England
Father: George Grove
Spouse: William Fishlock
Spouse father: Joseph Fishlock
----------------------------

Possibly this Sarah?

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Lodging House, Lamb Street, St Philip and St Jacob, Clifton, Gloucestershire,

George Grove Lodger Married Male 32 1829 Baker -
Mary Ann Grove Wife Married Female 23 1838 - Birmingham, Warwickshire,
Sarah Grove Daughter Unmarried Female 2 1859 - Birmingham, Warwickshire,
George Grove Son - Male 0 1861 - Birmingham, Warwickshire,
----------------------------------------

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Paviours Alley, St Saviour, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

George Grove Head - Male 42 1829 General Pedlar Berkshire
Mary Ann Grove Wife - Female 32 1839 - Warwickshire, England
Sarah Grove Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Warwickshire, England
George Grove Son - Male 10 1861 - Warwickshire, England
Eliza Grove Daughter - Female 2 1869 - Warwickshire, England
-----------------------------

Looks like she was living with William as married in 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
80, Tabard Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

William Fishlock Head Married Male 20 1861 Boot Maker -
Sarah Fishlock Wife Married Female 22 1859 Laundress
-----------------------------

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Etham Street, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey,

William Fishlock Head Married Male 30 1861 General Labourer London, Middlesex,
Sarah Fishlock Wife Married Female 32 1859 - Warwickshire, England
Arthur Fishlock Son Single Male 9 1882 Scholar London, Middlesex,
Mary A Fishlock Daughter Single Female 2 1889 - London, Middlesex,
---------------------------------------

Arthur's birth confirming mother's maiden name:

FISHLOCK, ARTHUR mmn: GROVE
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 26

FindMyPast version of the 1891 census posted by Choccy.

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Willmotts Buildings, Long Lane, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England


John Caster Head Married Male 34 1857 General Labourer United States
Elizabeth Caster Wife Married Female 25 1866 - London, Middlesex, England
Phoebe Grove Sister In Law Single Female 14 1877 Sweets Packer London, Middlesex, England
William Fishback Nephew Single Male - - - London, Middlesex, England

Pretty sure that Sarah's father remarried so that accounts maybe for more Grove children, that Phoebe might be connected to lolol


I think I'll just say that William Joseph was 'probably with relatives' in 1891 ;-)

Thankyou all for your help :-)

I can't link Phoebe to the Grove that married Williams uncle... losing the plot lol

Marriages Dec 1885 (>99%)

Fishlock William St. Saviour 1d 251
GROVE Sarah St. Saviour 1d 251

This i think is the right Sarah, but I can't now find the marriage image that I saved :-(

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
15, Market Street, Clerkenwell, London & Middlesex, England


Thomas Grove Head Married Male 24 1837 Watch Case Maker Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England Transcription
Sarah Grove Wife - Female 23 1838 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Sarah Grove Daughter Unmarried Female 4 1857 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England<<<
Angelina Grove Daughter Unmarried Female 2 1859 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Adelaide Grove Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England

Phoebe Grove 1876 Southwark daughter of George Grove and Mary Ann Rayner.

Maryb.

Would be below for that...

Chris :)

Westminster Marriages Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Alice
Last name Marcham
Age 18 (Spinster)
Birth year 1867
Marriage year 1885
Parish St Mark, North Audley Street
Spouse's first name(s) George (Bachelor occ. Tailor)
Spouse's last name Turton
Spouse's age 24
Spouse's birth year 1861
(his Father, William Turton occ. Tailor, her Father, George Marcham occ. Labourer. Residence at Time for both, 8 Providence Court. Witnesses, J Bartlett, Mary Brown)

:-S

now there could be a link there because William's uncle ( also William !) married a Grove

IF that marriage is correct, this could be another child of the marriage ........



Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
TURTON, MARY MARCHAM
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 571

??her death ... age could be 5 months or 5 years

TURTON, MARY 5 r
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 377

Emma Siddons 1864 V01d P137 mum nee Musgrave

Georgina 1868 V01d P 139 mum nee Musgrave.

Maryb.

Alice would only have been about 16, but this is the only one I can find ...........

Marriages Jun 1885 (>99%)

MARCHAM Alice St Geo. H. Sq 1a 701
MAREHAM Alice St Geo. H. Sq 1a 701
TURTON George St Geo. H. Sq. 1a 701


Sorry, just realised this has already been posted

just out of interest ...... from GRO Index

TURTON, WILLIAM JAMES mmn MARCHAM
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 107

England and Wales Census, 1871
Name
Emma Siddons
Event Type
Census
Event Date
1871
Event Place
St George The Martyr, London, Surrey, England
Enumeration District
9
Gender
Female
Age
7
Marital Status
Single
Relationship to Head of Household
Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated)
1864
Birthplace
Southwark, Surrey
Entry Number
13
Affiliate Image Identifier
GBC/1871/0600/0028
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
William Siddons
Head
M
30
Lambeth, Surrey
Emma Siddons
Wife
F
28
Southwark, Surrey
Emma Siddons
Daughter
F
7
Southwark, Surrey
Georgena Siddons
Daughter
F
3
Southwark, Surrey

Marriages Jun 1885   (>99%)
Fishlock
 Edward
 
 St Saviour
 1d
236
  
Siddons
 Emma
 
 St. Saviour
 1d
236