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I might make a guess that Eliza knew this man who died before either of the children was born.

Births Dec 1874 (>99%)
BRYSON William Robert Lambeth 1d 395

Deaths Mar 1897 (>99%)
Bryson William Robert 22 St. Saviour 1d 71

Occupation given as Porter on army records, but Eliza might have told it differently? This is just a guess though


First name(s) William Robert
Last name Bryson
Birth year 1875
Birth parish Lambeth
Birth town London
Birth county Surrey
Birth country England
Service number 8212
Regiment -
Year 1894
Attestation date 24 Sep 1894
Attestation age years 19
Attestation age months 10
Attestation service number 8212
Attestation corps 4th Bn East Surrey Regiment
Document type Attestation
Series Wo 96 - Militia Service Records 1806-1915
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 96
Box 574
Box record number 339
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain, England

Having 'Ticks' (as viewed before) coming up, can see I have looked at things in the past, below to go with Army Record (Underage as known)

Chris :)

Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Alex William Robert
Last name Bryson
Service number
Age 19 Years 0 Months
Birth year 1895
Birth place Westminster
Birth county London
Birth country England
Occupation Air Mechanic
Attestation year 1914
Attestation date 30 August 1914
Attestation place Kingston On Thames
Unit or regiment 19th Hussars
Regiment 19th Hussars
Height 5ft 7in.
Weight in pounds 117
Eye colour Blue
Complexion Fair
Hair colour Dark
Chest expansion inches 2
Chest size inches 33
Notes
Volunteers. This recruitment register has General Service written at the top of one page, and GS written after the destination regiment for some entries on the first few pages.
County Surrey
Reference 2496 / 40
Series VOLUNTEERS, 8TH AUGUST 1914 TO 7TH SEPTEMBER 1914


Friend, Patrick Gillespie, 82, Fenchurch Street, looking at that address Newspapers (Find My Past) seems to be Gillespie Brothers, Wine & Spirit Merchants.


For 200 Great Dover Street, Southwark, Ellen Wright on Electoral (Ancestry, London) her Death 1906, Newsagent, Bookseller.


Bit of Occupation change, from Chemists Traveller (Birth Cert.) Paint Manufacturer (Baptism 1889) then Secretary to British Consul (1918 Marriage, stating Deceased)


https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1330098

(more on above, comes up on google search, relating to below, who names his Sister as Eliza Bryson Dover Street on Army Record (also known as Davis)


1901 (Find My Past)
Edmund Gissing Head Married Male 24 1877 Laborer (Brandy Vaults) Hackney, Middlesex, England
Sarah Gissing Wife Married Female 25 1876 - Hackney, Middlesex, England
Edmund T Gissing Son Single Male 2 1899 - Hackney, Middlesex, England
William M Gissing Brother Single Male 29 1872 - Hackney, Middlesex, England 20, Ada Street, Hackney, London & Middlesex,


1911 (Find My Past)
Edmund Gissing Head Married Male Carman 27 1884 Hackney London
Elizabeth Florance Gissing Wife Married Female - 23 1888 Hackney London
Edmund Thomas Gissing Son - Male - 9 1902 Hackney London
Emily Eliza Gissing Daughter - Female - 0 1911 Homerton London
16 Nisbet Street N E, St John At Hackney, London & Middlesex,

Having read through everything .............. I think that Robert Bryson and Eliza did not marry, although she must have pretended that she was married when registering the baby, and when he was baptised.

Then, as now, a woman who said she was married did not have to show any proof of it, the Registrar took her word.

Plus, if she said her married name was Bryson and her maiden name Gissing, then Robert would not have had to be present to agree to his name being on the certificate.

I think you are just going to have to accept that Robert Bryson was named on the birth certificate but that there is no other documentation to prove that he was the father, and that he did not marry Eliza.

Maybe the naming of Robert was a reaction to the fact that Eliza already had one illegitimate child, and so pretended she was married to avoid more censure.


Re this .........

Is it possible to access the parish records for St .Saviour Southwark .?

If by this you mean the information that was shown on Alexander's birth registration .......... St Saviour, Southwark is just the registration district within which he was born.

The Parish record for St George the Martyr, Southwark can be seen on ancestry (a subscription site).

Thanks for everyone’s interest . I’m still confused. .I suppose it is possible that Robert and Eliza were not married despite having a child .
Is it possible to access the parish records for St .Saviour Southwark .?

Mary Bryson (clough) my grandmother died young with cancer leaving behind 4 children .

Thank you for your help
There still is no link to Robert Bryson which seems to be a stumbling block .

3rd Marriage.......

Marriages Dec 1947 (>99%)
Bartlett Kathleen G Bryson Bristol 7b 289
Bryson Alexander W R Bryson Bristol 7b 289


1953, 1954 and 1955 ER at 63 Braemar Avenue......

With Alexander W Bryson and Mary Bartlett

Kathleen on the 1939 Register........


Kathleen Gertrude Bryson (Bartlett) on the 1939 Register

Bartlett Household (3 People) 63 Braemar Avenue , Sodbury R.D., Gloucestershire, England

Kathleen Gertrude Bryson (Bartlett) 24 Mar 1906 Female Dressmaker Single 122 2
Mary Bartlett 12 Dec 1874 Female Housewife Widowed 122 1
Matthias Jones 14 Feb 1893 Male Aircraft Inspector Married 122 3



Kathleen Gertrude Bryson in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Kathleen Gertrude Bryson
Death Age: 68
Birth Date: 24 Mar 1906
Registration Date: Mar 1974
Registration district: Bristol
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 656

Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
BRYSON Alexander W R Clough Lanchester 10a 641
Clough Mary A Bryson Lanchester 10a 641

(Do you know what happened to Mary??)

2nd Marriage........

Marriages Sep 1939 (>99%)
Bryson Alexander W R Darke Sunderland 10a 1803
Darke Lily Bryson Sunderland 10a 1803


Alexander W R Bryson on the 1939 Register

Bryson Household (1 Person) 21 Cairns Road , Sunderland C.B., Durham, England

Alexander W R Bryson 12 Mar 1899 Male Aero & Motor Engineer Married 284 1
Closed Record
Closed Record
Closed Record

On the right of the page is written........See Page 18 Book.....

And then you get.......

Alexander W Bryson on the 1939 Register

47 Calvin Road , Sunderland C.B., Durham, England

Alexander W ?ryson 03 Mar (Edited to 12th Mar) 1899 Male Aero & Motor Engineer Married 281
(A red line is marked through his name and to the right is written.....607 Squadron R.A.F. Auxiliary ..Discharged 1935 No 807035)
Lily Bryson 31 Oct 1898 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 281
Closed Record
Closed Record
Closed Record

Thomas P Gissing in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Thomas P Gissing
Year: 1947
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Camberwell
Street address: 24 Arklow House,

With Eliza and Roslyn

You would need to purchase a copy of the Whitby/Gissing marriage cert Judy to be sure we are on the right track.

Her age is out by a few years on the 1939 Rgister and her age at death.

Eliza was actually born in 1869/1870

GISSING, ELIZA ANN HOSKING
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR'S SURREY Volume 01D Page 158 Order

Prickles. :-)

Eliza A Whitby in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Eliza A Whitby
Death Age: 95
Birth Date: abt 1863
Registration Date: Jun 1958
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 207

Res at time of death........from the 1958 ER

Eliza A Whitby in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Eliza A Whitby.......(And Roselyn)
Year: 1958
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Peckham
Street address: 24 Arklow House, Keesey Street

Thomas P Gissing in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2005
Name: Thomas P Gissing
Mother's Maiden Surname: Gissing
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1917
Registration district: Southwark
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 185

Roslyn's son perhaps??


Thomas Patrick Gissing in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Thomas Patrick Gissing
Death Age: 75
Birth Date: 23 Sep 1917
Registration Date: Feb 1993
Registration district: Southend On Sea
Inferred County: Essex
Register Number: D62B
District and Subdistrict: 4751D
Entry Number: 11

It would seem that Roslyn/Rosline is Eliza's daughter........

Rosaline Gissing in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1659-1930

Name: Rosaline Gissing
Birth Date: 1898
Admission Age: 7
Admission Date: 16 Feb 1905
Record Type: Admission
Borough: Southwark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Camberwell
Place: London, England
Title: Scattered Homes, Peckham, 1902-1907

Mother Eliza in the GR (Gordon Road?) Workhouse

It would seem to me then that Eliza didn't actually marry Robert Bryson?

Roslyn is with Eliza on the 1929 ER.


Rosline Louise Gissing in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Rosline Louise Gissing
Death Age: 81
Birth Date: 9 Apr 1898
Registration Date: Sep 1979
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 11
Page: 1158

Ah.....Eliza Ann Gissing has a sister Amelia Gissing

Marriages Jun 1915 (>99%)
Gissing Amelia H Hogan Camberwell 1d 2276
Hogan Thomas P Gissing Camberwell 1d 2276#

Births Dec 1877 (>99%)
GISSING Amelia Harriett MMN Hosking St Saviour 1d 155

Yippeeee!!

Res: 3 Osborne Street.........(Same address as the 1881 census)

Amelia Harriet Gissing in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916

Name: Amelia Harriet Gissing
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 24 Oct 1880
Baptism Place: Walworth St John the Evangelist, Southwark, England
Father: Joseph John Gissing (Railway Porter)
Mother: Ann Gissing

Also Baptised on the same day.....

Joseph John
Alfred William
Eliza Ann
Caroline Jane
Thomas James


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
3, Osborne Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

Joseph Gissing Head Married Male 36 1845 Railway Porter Southwark, Surrey, England
Transcription
Ann Gissing Wife Married Female 36 1845 - Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Joseph Gissing Son Single Male 14 1867 Errand Boy Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Alfred Gissing Son Single Male 12 1869 Scholar Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Eliza Gissing Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Caroline Gissing Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Thomas Gissing Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Amelia Gissing Daughter Single Female 3 1878 Scholar Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
William Gissing Son Single Male 1 1880 - Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
Sarah Hoskins Widow Widow Female 68 1813 Laundress Southwark, Surrey, England

GISSING, WILLIAM CHARLES MMN HOSKINS
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 190



Amelia H Hogan in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Amelia H Hogan
Death Age: 79
Birth Date: abt 1878
Registration Date: Mar 1957
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 794

This is interesting......

No idea if it's connected though

??

Eliza Whitby (Whitley) on the 1939 Register

Hogan Household (5 People) 24 Arklow House , Camberwell, London, England

Eliza Whitby (Whitley) 14 Feb 1866 Female Home Duties Widowed 263 2
Amelia Hogan 20 Oct 1877 Female Charwomen Home Unpaid Duties Married 263 1
Roslyn (Louise) Gissing 09 Apr 1898 Female Restaurant Cook Single 263 3
Sorry, this record is officially closed.
Thomas P Gissing 23 Sep 1917 Male Metal Foundry Labourer Single 263 5

Eliza Ann Whitby still at 64 Sultan Road on the 1923-----1932 ER's.

At the same residence on the 1934 and 1938 ER......Appears as Elizabeth Ann Whitby.

from that post "The witnesses at Alecs wedding were Jane Clough( sister in law) and Harry nicholas williamson .
Alecs daughter ,my aunt, is still alive but cant remember much . She does however keep mentioning uncle Harry in london who could be either Roberts brother or Elizas 2nd husband. "

Some possibly relevant info on an old search of Judiths

https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-44805.html

"14-04-2009, 8:17 PM
HI , On Alexander William Robert Bryson 's birth cert. his father is given as Robert Bryson a "Chemists traveller"
Alexanders birth was 12 march 1899 at 200 Gt Dover Street. Newington.
For his mother it says Eliza Bryson formerly Gissing.
By the time Alexander got married in 1918 his father was listed as Secretary to the British consul, Paris (deceased).
Both certificates are correct , by the addresses. "

Benjamin Whitby in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965



Name: Benjamin Whitby
Year: 1918....1921
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Camberwell
Street address: 64 Sultan Street

With Eliza Ann Whitby

------------------------------------------------

If you want to trace back Benjamin, i think you will find that this is him.......

Benjamin John Whitby in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916
Name: Benjamin John Whitby
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 12 Aug 1855
Birth Date: Aug 12th
Baptism Place: Newington St Mary, Southwark, England
Father: Thomas Whitby (Sweep) Res: Red Cross Court
Mother: Elizabeth Whitby


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
4, Red Cross Square, St Saviour, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

Thomas Whitley Head Married Male 51 1810 Chimney Sweep ... France ???
Transcription
Elizabeth Whitley Wife Married Female 45 1816 Washer Woman Newington, Surrey, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Whitley Daughter Unmarried Female 32 1829 - Newington, Surrey, England
Transcription
Ann Whitley Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1843 - Rotherhithe, Surrey, England
Transcription
Eliza Whitley Daughter - Female 9 1852 - Newington, Surrey, England
Transcription
Benjamin Whitley Son - Male 4 1857 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Transcription
Martha Whitley Daughter - Female 1 1860 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Transcription
John Miller Servant Unmarried Male 40 1821 - Lambeth, Surrey, England
Transcription
William Weeks Servant Unmarried Male 53 1808 - Kent, England

This might be Benjamin on the 1901 census....

John B J Whitby in the 1901 England Census

Name: John B J Whitby
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bow, London, England
Civil Parish: Camberwell
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Camberwell

Household Members:
Name Age
William Beaumont 52
Lottie Beaumont 47
John B J Whitby 44 Horse Keeper