Profile | Posted by | Options | Post Date |
|
Jackie
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:12 |
Apologies - this is a longshot. I have a photo of an unidentified seaman (no cap, no badges etc) in my late Gran's album. So am searching for descendants of Joseph White born St Martins, Middlesex 30/4/1851 and Caroline (nee Coleman) born St Giles, Middlesex 16/10/58 who was in the Royal Navy during WW1 and interred in the Groningen Camp in Northern Holland. Can supply scan of photo if anyone thinks they may be in their tree. Thanks for any info.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:29 |
For our reference -
Marriages Jun 1876 (>99%) COLEMAN Caroline Holborn 1b 1054 White Joseph Holborn 1b 1054
Caroline White in the 1881 England Census Name: Caroline White Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relationship to Head: Wife Spouse: Joseph White Gender: Female Where born: St Giles, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: St Pancras County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 12 Edward St Marital Status: Married Registration district: Pancras Sub registration district: Regents Park ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Neighbors: Piece: 178 Folio: 65 Page Number: 23 Household Members: Name Age Joseph White 29 Caroline White 22 Edward J. White
Caroline White in the 1891 England Census Name: Caroline White Gender: Female Age: 32 Relationship: Wife Birth Year: 1859 Spouse: Joseph White Child: Edward White Arthur White Joseph White Birth Place: Kilburn, London, England Civil Parish: Willesden Residence Place: Willesden, Middlesex, England Sub registration district: Willesden ED, Institution or Vessel: 22b Neighbors: Piece: 1047 Folio: 123 Household Members: Name Age Joseph White 39 Caroline White 32 Edward White 10 Arthur White 8 Joseph White 6
Caroline White in the 1901 England Census Name: Caroline White Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation to Head: Wife Gender: Female Spouse: Joseph White Birth Place: London, England Civil Parish: Willesden Ecclesiastical parish: Kensal Rise St John County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Hendon Sub-registration district: Willesden ED, institution, or vessel: 30 Neighbors: Piece: 1219 Folio: 6 Page Number: 3 Household schedule number: 22 Household Members: Name Age Joseph White 49 Caroline White 42 Edw J White 20 Joseph T White 16 Ernest H White 9
I haven't found the family in 1911 - yet.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:31 |
Ernest seems to have died 1977, so not in Groningen -
Ernest Herbert White in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Ernest Herbert White Death Age: 85 Birth Date: 12 Mar 1892 Registration Date: Jun 1977 Registration district: Paddington Inferred County: Greater London Volume: 14 Page: 1133
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:36 |
Joseph T was in the US and Canada.
Canada 1910:
Joseph Thomas White in the Ontario, Canada, Marriages, 1826-1936 Name: Joseph Thomas White Age: 28 Birth Year: abt 1882 Marriage Date: 1 Sep 1910 Marriage Place: Wentworth, Ontario, Canada Father: Joseph White Mother: Caroline Coleman Spouse: Mary Ann King
Joseph Thomas White in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007 Name: Joseph Thomas White Gender: Male Race: White Birth Date: 23 Aug 1884 Birth Place: London, United Kingdom Father: Joseph White Mother: Caroline Coleman SSN: 262146879 Notes: Oct 1937: Name listed as JOSEPH THOMAS WHITE
Don't know what date this record has - the 1937 note may be a later addition. No image to look at.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:42 |
Edward J -
Birth: WHITE, EDWARD JAMES mms COLEMAN GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 17
Edward James White in the 1911 England Census Name: Edward James White Age in 1911: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: St Pancras Civil Parish: Willesden County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: 28 Claremont Road, W Kilburn N W Marital Status: Married Occupation: Traveller Dyers and Cleaner Registration district: Willesden Registration District Number: 129 Sub-registration district: Willesden ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Household schedule number: 435 Piece: 6995 Household Members: Name Age Edward James White 30 Harriett Elizabeth White 35 Evelyn Margaret White 5
He was in the RAF, not the Navy:
Edward James White in the UK, Royal Air Force Airmen Records, 1918-1940 name: Edward James White Gender: Male Age: 36 Birth Date: 1880 Service Date: 30 Jun 1916 Service Number: 35583 Spouse: Harriet Elizabeth White Next of Kin: Harriet Elizabeth White Relation to Airman: Wife
Can't see the details of the record without sub to Fold3.
He survived the war:
Edward White in the 1939 England and Wales Register Name: Edward White Gender: Male Marital Status: Married Birth Date: 17 Apr 1880 Residence Year: 1939 Address: 68 Residence Place: Willesden, Middlesex, England Occupation: Jewell Case Makers Trav?? Schedule Number: 113 Sub Schedule Number: 1 Enumeration District: BXFB Registration district: 129-2 Inferred Spouse: Harriet Elizabeth White Inferred Children: Evelyn Margaret White Household Members: Name Edward White Harriet Elizabeth White Evelyn Margaret White William James White
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:42 |
In 1911, 135 men wth surname WHITE were recorded as being in the Royal Navy
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:46 |
He wasn't interRed - he was interNed. A big difference!
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:49 |
The Groningen Camp Magazine Website
During October 1914, over 1500 troops from the First Royal Naval Brigade were interned in Groningen, Holland, for the duration of World War I. During the internment, a Camp Magazine was produced, detailing the activities of those interned and ..............................
http://www.groningencamp.co.uk/
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 14:59 |
Who was your gran, please?
I'm assuming not Caroline - too old?
Why do you think the seaman might be a child of Joseph & Caroline?
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 15:21 |
The son Arthur, who appears in the 1891 census:
WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM mms COLEMAN GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44
Possibly him in 1901 ??
Arthur White in the 1901 England Census Name: Arthur White Age: 19 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882 Relation to Head: Private Gender: Male Birth Place: London, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Norwich Ecclesiastical parish: Pickthorpe and St James County/Island: Norfolk Country: England Street address: Occupation: Registration district: Norwich Sub-registration district: East Wymer ED, institution, or vessel: Cavalry Barracks Neighbors: Piece: 1841 Folio: 157 Page Number: 14 Household schedule number: 1
??
Arthur White in the British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 Name: Arthur White Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1882 Enlistment Age: 35 Document Year: 1917 Residence Place: 22 Halton Road Islington Regimental Number: 32319 Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment Number of Images: 2 Form Title: Record of Service Family Members: Name Relation to Soldier Arthur White Self (Head)
Occupation: horse keeper. No family members named. Deserted 25/01/1917. "No court of Inquiry held, and no further information available."
May have died June 1919, per a later page.
But not Royal Navy, even if this is Joseph & Caroline's son.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
18 Jul 2018 17:50 |
The Catton / Battershill marriage cert might be worth buying, to see who she names as her father.
|
|
Jackie
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 09:15 |
Big quandary now re Joseph Thomas White marriage in Ontario! Another GR contact who has the Whites in his tree says his great grandfather was Joseph Edward White born Kilburn, London in 1888 (son of Caroline Coleman and Joseph White, brother of Arthur William) who married Edith Elizabeth Cozens. His grandfather was Cyril Joseph William White, son of Joseph Edward and Edith. So who is Joseph Thomas White? My own grandfather, Arthur William White, was born in 1882, served in the Boer War, and survived both WW1 and WW2. There wouldn't be two sons named Joseph - would there???
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 09:41 |
NEVER take anyone else's info as being accurate until you verify it
These are the only births for Joseph Edward White in 1888+/-1yr
WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD CRUMP Order GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 178 Order WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD PEARSON Order GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 206 Order WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD BAINES Order GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in BRADFORD YORKSHIRE Volume 09B Page 32 Order WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD NORTON GOODGER Order GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 569
On the other hand, THIS birth has MMN Coleman, but is in the wrong area for your family
WHITE, THOMAS HENRY COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 310
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 09:45 |
There are numerous White/Coleman births, so care is essential
These, I think, are 'yours'
WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44 WHITE, JOSEPH THOMAS COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 183
|
|
ErikaH
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 09:49 |
Ernest Herbert White Spouse: Annie Eliza Pargiter Father: Joseph White Mother: Caroline Coleman Birth: 12/03/1892 Hendon Middlesex England Death: 1977 London London England
A couple of baptisms
Edward James White 9 May 1880 St Pancras St James Camden Joseph, Caroline
Arthur William White 30 Jul 1882 St Pancras Camden Joseph, Caroline
|
|
greyghost
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 10:02 |
Births of children showing on census - just to keep them together Matches for White mmn Coleman.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order: WHITE, JOSEPH THOMAS COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 183
WHITE, ERNEST HERBERT COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in HENDON Volume 03A Page 169 Order
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order: WHITE, EDWARD JAMES COLEMAN Order GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 17
WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM mms COLEMAN GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44
The only Joseph Edward 1888 was born in Barnsley RD and if you look at Edward Joseph there was one in Hendon RD but mmn Hammond
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 10:40 |
PM from Jackie (I had asked who her grandmother was, because if the photo was in her gran's album, it must have meant something to her) -
Thank you so much for all that info, some of which I have never seen before. My Gran was Ethel May White (nee Pargiter) wife of Arthur William White. I know he was in the Army and Ernest Herbert White was in RAMC. Gran's sister emigrated to Canada and I am in contact with a descendant, but he says although he has the same pic as me, he has no knowledge of who the young man might be. I know Grandad Arthur's siblings where in the forces, so thought perhaps he was a White. Ho hum - back to the drawing board! Thank so much for all your efforts.
|
|
Jackie
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 10:40 |
Ernest Herbert White and Annie Pargiter (Hendon) are definitely correct, as is Arthur William White (Pancras). The Joseph Edward White mentioned in another GR member's tree, I have in my tree as born circa 1885. I'm really getting confused here with the Josephs. I have the 1891 and 1901 censuses which I will recheck. My granddad Arthur William wasn't mentioned in the 1901 as he had already enlisted in the Army by falsifying his age.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 10:47 |
There is no Joseph Edward listed in any of the censuses with Joseph & Caroline (all posted earlier) .
And Erika has shown there is no birth record of a Joseph Edward with mms Coleman.
|
|
Jackie
|
Report
|
19 Jul 2018 13:27 |
Then the GR member who has Joseph Edward White in his family tree and said we were relatives was therefore incorrect! The GR member descended from White/Coleman, but as you've pointed out, there were several White/Coleman marriages. I'll have to doctor my tree.
The reason I am so interested in establishing the correct Joseph is because ArgyllGran has found an entry for Joseph Thomas White in Toronto. Two of my Gran Ethel's sisters emigrated to Canada and I am in contact with one of the sister's great grandsons. Both he and I have the same photo of the unidentified young WW1 seaman and we would love to find out where in the family he fits in. If the Joseph Thomas White is actually my White, he may be the missing link.
|