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My grandfather David Davies born on the 10th July 1898 in Llangeler Cardiganshire was the second eldest of eight children.
His mother was Frances whose maiden name on their marriage certificate (1895) was given as Frances Owens. On the same certificate her father's name was given as Thomas Stephens who was a butcher.
Many years ago my cousin drew up a family tree on which he scribbled that Frances was illegitimate. When I found this recently and asked him about it he had no recollection except that he understood Frances's father was a university professor.
Now I am looking in detail at my grandfather's line it has become clear that many of the eight children (my grandfather's brother's and sisters) have achieved beyond what would have been expected of a large family with two parents who were labourers/manual workers.
From what I know my two aunts learned to play the organ and played in chapel. My grandfather ( who is unlikely to have received a secondary education) passed his Inspectors exams in the police force. Another brother was also a policeman. Another was a bank manager and another a fireman. One died in infancy and another I have no information about.
Llangeler where the family lived is between two universities and so the rumour is not impossible to believe
I have no more information. I imagine that the only way I can take this further would be through a DNA test.
Does anyone have anyother ideas please?

Presumably you have the 1898 birth cert?

Thomas Stephens
Age 45
Widower.
Estimated Birth Year abt 1836
Relation Head
Gender Male
Where born Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llangeler
County/Island Carmarthenshire
Country Wales
Street Address Tycanol
Condition as to marriage Widow
Occupation **Butcher (Master)**
Registration district Newcastle In Emyln
Sub registration district Kenarth
ED, institution, or vessel 11
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 5431
Folio 27
Page number 16
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas Stephens 45 Head
Anne Stephens
20
Daughter ?.

Anne Stephens
15
Daughter..?.

1881census.


1891 census,


Name Thomas Stephens -a Butcher.
Age 46
Estimated Birth Year abt 1845
Relation Head
Gender Male
Where born Penboyr, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llangeler
Town Wlad
County/Island Carmarthenshire
Country Wales
Registration district Newcastle In Emlyn
Sub registration district Kenarth
ED, institution, or vessel 10
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 4546
Folio 114
Page number 17
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas Stephens 46 Head
David Stephens
34
Son
Harriet Stephens
26
Daughter.

Frances Owens
Age 17
Estimated Birth Year abt 1874
Relation Granddaughter
Gender Female
Where born Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llangeler
Town Wlad
County/Island Carmarthenshire
Country Wales
Registration district Newcastle In Emlyn
Sub registration district Kenarth
ED, institution, or vessel 10
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 4546
Folio 106
Page number 1
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Jones
68
Head
Frances Jones
64
Wife
Thomas Jones
31
Son
Ann Owens
23
Granddaughter.

Frances Owens..
17.
Granddaughter.

Name Frances Owen
[Frances Stephens]
Gender Female
Marriage Age 22
Record Type Marriage
Birth Date 1873
Marriage Date 4 Jun 1895
Marriage Place Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Father
Thomas Stephens
Spouse
Thomas Davies
Page number 211.

Witneses were,
Thomas Jones..
David James.

Thomas Stephens well may have been the natural father but not marriedt to the mother.....DNA could be the way to go.

In 1881 and 1891 Frances is with her grandparents, John and Frances Jones.

Her birth - illegitimate:

OWENS, FRANCES -
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 17


Birth of the Jones's other grand-daughter listed in 1881

OWEN, ANNE mmn JAMES
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 21


Marriages Jun 1857 (>99%)
James Frances Newcastle Emlyn 11B 60
Jones John Newcastle Emlyn 11b 60

In 1861 census, John and Frances have a daughter Margaret, listed as Jones, but born before they married:

???
JAMES, MARGARET -
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 26 Page 648

I "THINK" this is Margaret in 1871 , "widowed" (but possibly saving face if unmarried) , with Ann, the Jones's grand-daughter listed in 1881:

Margaret Owens
in the 1871 Wales Census
Name Margaret Owens
Age 24
Estimated Birth Year abt 1847
Relation Head
Gender Female
Where born Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Civil parish Llangeler
County/Island Carmarthenshire
Country Wales
Registration district Newcastle Inn Emlyn
Sub-registration district 1B Kenarth
ED, institution, or vessel 12
Household schedule number 100
Piece 5544
Folio 12
Page number 20
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Margaret Owens 24 Head
Anne Owens 3 Daughter

If Frances is her daughter, Margaret must have given her married name as her maiden name on the birth cert - or maybe it's just that the father wasn't her husband.


I can't see a marriage for Margaret.
It's NOT this one, as this woman's father was James James, a carpenter, and not John Jones, a farmer.

Marriages Dec 1868
JAMES Margaret Newcastle E. 11b 49
OWEN Evan Newcastle E. 11b 49

In answer to the question of tracing the father of an illegimate child - it is very difficult.

Much too late for Bastardy bonds. Occasionally the father’s name appears on a baptismal record.

Unless the supposed father had died the child is not regarded as illegitimate, but is may be that the mother was known to have had an affair.

But yes, it can be possible to work something out by dna. The best thing is to persuade descendants of David’s siblings to also test. You would then need to group your results and see if there is any great difference.

DAVIES, DAVID OWENS
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 13

Based on the registration, the mother's husband is recorded as the father of her child - what actual evidence is there to support your cousin's theory? Especially as David was not the first-born in the marriage..................


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Rosehill, Llwyncelyn, Llangeler (Carmarthen), Newcastle in Emlyn, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Thomas Davies Head Married Male 31 1870 Woollen weaver Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Frances Davies Wife Married Female 27 1874 - Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Margaret Davies Daughter - Female 5 1896 - Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
David Davies Son - Male 2 1899 - Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
John Davies Son - Male 0 1901 - Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Thank you-what a wealth of information!
The person whose father's identity I am seeking is FRANCES Davies nee Owens/Stevens. So on the basis of the information above, it is HER mother Margaret Owens who would have the answer to this question.
The paternity of my grandfather and his brothers and sisters is not in question. My grandfather was not the David Owens Davies mentioned by ErikaH.(but thank you)
If I understand correctly and accepting the information I already have
John Jones and Frances had a daughter Margaret ( Owens)- possibly born 1849- or 1847 according to 1871 census
They also had a son Thomas Jones.
In 1868 Margaret had a daughter she named Ann Owens
In 1873 Margaret gave birth to FRANCES also named Owens. The father of both of these remains unknown.
On the 4th June 1895 FRANCES marries Thomas Davies- these are myggpts
Their first child Margaret was born on the 10th November 1995 and is named after FRANCES's mother.
Their second child David ( my gf) was born on the 10th July 1898. He may have been named after FRANCES's father but we don't know who he is.
Other of the eight children were named Thomas ( as per Stevens but also as per Thomas Davies) and John and Gwilym Edward and Daniel Owen and Annie
We have no evidence to support my cousins theory but I don't think this was a conclusion he came to. At the time he prepared this family tree both his father and my mother were still alive and my mother in particular had a good knowledge of the history.
Whilst I must accept that there is a bit of putting bits of a jigsaw together- can anyone pick any holes in this?
I am so grateful for the time you are all giving to this- thank you again
Frances

So far, so good - but it doesn't explain why Thomas Stephens is named as Frances's father on her marriage cert. Unless he actually was her father!

Impossible to prove one way or the other from documentation.

Frances's birth cert will give her mother's name.

You misread the birth registration.....OWENS was the MMN!!!

And I misread your post (oops)......I was sidetracked by the details regarding David, who I thought was the focus of the post, as he was the first one mentioned, although he is in no way relevant to the actual request

Your chances of identifying Frances's father are slim, at best.

She was certainly NOT born in wedlock - her birth registration proves she was illegitimate.

As for her naming someone as her father on her marriage cert............................face-saving???

Who witnessed the marriage?

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Penpwll, Llangeler (Carmarthen), Newcastle in Emlyn, Carmarthenshire, Wales
John Jones Head Married Male 58 1823 Farmer of 11 acres Henllan, Cardiganshire, Wales
Frances Jones Wife Married Female 55 1826 - Conwy, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Thomas Jones Son Single Male 11 1870 Scholar Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Anne Owen Grand daughter Single Female 13 1868 Scholar Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Frances Owen Grand daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Hannah Lloyd Servant Single Female 14 1867 General serv (domestic) Llangeler, Carmarthenshire, Wales

Whose DNA do you think you would be looking for as a comparison?

Thomas Jones (presumably Frances's uncle) and David James witnessed Frances's marriage.
(Posted by Kay???? on 8 Aug @ 19:25 )

Not my day! Think I'll give up on this ;-) ;-)

Sorry, I misread the op as well - one eye on the olympics ;-)

But my advice on dna just needs moving back. Regarding cousins dna it would help if a descendant of Frances siblings if she had any also tested. You would then be looking for commonality of matches to prove the story wrong. If the story is right then you would probably see a difference in matches - as long as members of that family had tested.
It could be difficult to sort out, however, as the further back the more difficult it becomes. If there is someone from the generation above you then it would be best for them to test.

Erika asked whose dna are you looking for as a comparison.

This might help

A match with a first cousin proves you share grandparents
A match with a second cousin proves you share a great grandparent
A match with a third cousin proves you share great great grandparents
And so on.

Where a match is a cousin x 1 removed for instance you need to work out whether they come from a higher or lower generation.

Wouldn’t there need to be a sample from a descendant of the unknown father for any ‘match’ to be of use?

The other illegitimate child, Anne, may not have had the same father as she was 6 years older. Has it even been established that she had the same mother? The OP has not indicated whether she has the birth cert….I somehow don’t think she has one for Frances, or she would not have been in any doubt about her illegitimacy.

I suggested this birth for Anne:

OWEN, ANNE mmn JAMES
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 21

Of course one would need to see the actual cert to be sure.

Erika asks if a sample of a descendant of the father is needed. Not really. Any relation match can lead to the family. It can come from the fathers siblings or the fathers aunts and uncles ( descendants of course).

Once one has identified a possible family group then a family tree or a ‘dirty’ tree is needed. With any luck you can then narrow it down to just a few with immense luck there might only be one son from a family. Then it is up to the searcher to decide if they want more and ask descendants of the possibles to also test. Sometimes just knowing which family it is is enough.