Find Ancestors

Thanks everybody.

ArgyllGran...have tried searching for Mynyddyslwyn (which fits quite a few of the censuses I have - divided into districts) for Walters, Bull and Powells to no avail.

I even tried going from page to page to see if they were there but not transcribed. But can't find any of them anywhere!

Guess I'll now give up!

Jude

In 1851 the Powell family were in the sub-registration district of Rock Bedwellty.

There don't seem to be any online records at all for that sub-reg district in 1861.

William Walters's gravestone says he was born in 1831:

William Walters
Birth
1831
Death
1872 (aged 40–41)
Burial
Orchard Street Cemetery
Dover, Morris County, New Jersey, USA
Memorial ID
38166160 · View Source
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/38166160/william_walters

https://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/Gwent/BedwelltyPitsTredegar.htm

"I cannot find Dinah...... or William Walters allegedly born anything between 1829 and 1831 also in Bedwelty"


England & Wales Non-Conformist Births And Baptisms
Tredegar, Monmouthshire, Wales


William Walters in 1832
England & Wales Non-Conformist Births And Baptisms
Tredegar, Monmouthshire, Wales

*************************First name(s) William
*************************Last name Walters
Mother's first name(s) Ann
Father's first name(s) Rees
County Monmouthshire
****************************Birth year 1831
Country Wales
****************************Birth date 20 Jul 1831
Archive reference TNA/RG/4/1341
****************************Baptism year 1832
Piece description MONMOUTHSHIRE: Tredegar Iron Works, Sharon Chapel (Independent) : Births & Baptisms
****************************Baptism date 23 Jan 1832
Record set England & Wales Non-Conformist Births And Baptisms
Place Tredegar
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
****************************Birth place as transcribed Bedwellty
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Denomination Independent
Collections from Great Britain, Wales

1862
England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales

First name(s) William
Volume 11A
Last name Walters
Page 80
Sex Male
Country Wales
Birth year -
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Death quarter 2
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Death year 1862
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
District Bedwellty
Collections from Great Britain, Wales
County Monmouthshire

Because of Bedwellty references

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
139, Tredegar Road, Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales

William Price Head Married Male 62 1799 Coal miner Brecknockshire, Wales
Mary Price Wife Married Female 52 1809- Brecknockshire, Wales

Evan Price Son Unmarried Male 19 1842 Coal miner Llangattock, Brecknockshire, Wales

Thomas Price Son Unmarried Male 16 1845 Coal miner Llanelly, Breconshire, Wales

Margaret Price Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 Scholar Llanelly, Breconshire, Wales

****Mary Ann Walters Visitor Married Female 20 1841 - Llanelly,
Breconshire, Wales

*****William Walters Son Unmarried Male - - - Llanelly, Breconshire,
Wales

ArgyllGran

Re: POWELL, WILLIAM mmn RICHARDS
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 26 Page 128

Out of curiosity, I purchased the digital image. DOB is 05/06/1850 Father is William Powell. Mother is Sarah Powell formerly Richards. Father is from Fleur de Lys (correct area) and occupation is a collier. This all fits with William Powell the son (not the father because his occupation was always to do with horses e.g. ostler). It would make sense as well as there would not then be two sons called William.

Strangely, there is a marriage for William in the general area (Abergavenny) in the same quarter as the birth.

Sarah died on 08/07/1850 of consumption - wife of William Powell collier.
This would explain why William the baby is with his grandparents.

William's entry into the USA is purported to be 1860 which would explain why he can't be found in 1861 census. I haven't found him in 1851 yet.

Finding the 1861 censuses would answer a few questions I think!

Jude

That 1861 census refers to the marriage suggested by Jink20 on 13 August at 21:43.

I think the names are just a coincidence.



POWELL, EDWARD mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 352

POWELL, MARY ANN mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 337


Marriages Jun 1856 (>99%)
Powell John Merthyr Tydfil 11a 554
WALTERS Dianah Merthyr Tydfil 11a 554


????
Dinah Powell
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name Dinah Powell
Age 30
Estimated Birth Year abt 1836
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Death Registration Place Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, United Kingdom
Death Date Sep 1866
Inferred Death Place Glamorganshire, United Kingdom
Volume 11a
Page 217

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
47, Church Street, Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales

John Powell Head Married Male 24 183 7 Coal miner Brecon, Brecknockshire, Wales
Dinah Powell Wife Married Female *20* 1841 - Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary Ann Powell Daughter - Female *4* 1857 - -
Edward Powell Son - Male 2 1859

If the info given in 1851 for William Powell 1850 is correct, this should be his birth, assuming his birth was registered:

POWELL, WILLIAM mmn RICHARDS
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 26 Page 128

On the 1863 record, along with Dinah and the rest of them, Richard's name is abbreviated to Rich - transcribed as Rick on Ancestry.

Rick Powell
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name Rick Powell [Rich]
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 27
Birth Date abt 1836
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 13 May 1863
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name Sunrise

US National Archives database

MANIFEST IDENTIFICATION NUMBER 901915

901915 POWELL WILLIAM ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL WALTER ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL RICHARD ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL JOHN IRELAND IRELAND
901915 POWELL DINAH ENGLAND ENGLAND

ArgyllGran

Working my way through it all. There must be an error with Dinah and William Walters because I am as sure as can be that you are right! I have now added all the children in the 1841 and 1851 censuses and that same 1863 passenger list comes up for loads of them as you say.

I have not found out who James is......

One strange thing is in 1841 there is a son William born in 1828 for whom I have a good line of history in New Jersey (including his gravestone which is linked on the US Find a Grave site to parents William and Mary and siblings Dinah and Roger. On the 1851 census there is another son called William born in 1850 - not checked him out yet to see if he is another son or a grandson.

So on the assumption that they arrived in 1863, then we should be able to find William and Mary, Dinah and daughter Mary and John and Mary Bull in 1861 and to date I can't find any of them!

Jude

https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/passenger-result

Information for James Powell states he was 9

Roger was 23 and sailed on the City of New York

Powell, Richard 1863 last res/POB Ireland Ship Name Neptune
Powell, Richard 1863 Eng Ship Name Liverpool


US National Archives database

Records of Passengers from Ireland and the United Kingdom, ca. 1820 - ca. 1912
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/fielded-search.jsp?dt=3300&cat=gp44&tf=F&bc=,sl

Banns were found on FMP

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4188799%2F00011&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F859005133%2F2

Looking again at the 1863 travel record -

in spite of the fact that Dinah was already married to William Walter by that time, and I can't explain the Walter Powell listed with her in 1863 (unless a clerk got mixed up with the names Powell and Walter) -

the ages of John, Richard, and William Powell on that record would fit with those of Dinah's brothers and father:

Dinah Powell
in the 1851 Wales Census
Name Dinah Powell
Age 14
Estimated Birth Year abt 1837
Relation Daughter
Father's Name William Powell
Mother's Name Mary Powell
Gender Female
Where born Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township Mynyddyslwyn
Ecclesiastical parish Clawrplwyf
County/Island Monmouthshire
Country Wales
Registration district Newport
Sub-registration district St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel 1a
Piece 2453
Folio 266
Page number 5
Household schedule number 16
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Powell 51 Head
Mary Powell 49 Wife
John Powell 21 Son
Elizabeth Powell 19 Daughter
Richard Powell 16 Son
Dinah Powell 14 Daughter
Thomas Powell 11 Son
Roger Powell 7 Son
William Powell 10 Mo Son

Richard is with his older brother William (c1828) in New Jersey in 1870 census. The 1880 census says he immigrated in 1863. <<<<

Roger emigrated to the USA in 1866.

The parents, William and Mary, were in Rockaway, New Jersey in 1870, and both died in NJ.

(With them in 1870 is a James Powell, 11, born in Wales, who must be a grandson)

I don't know about the brothers Thomas or William (1850)., or the sister Elizabeth.

Re James Powell, 11 -
that brings me back to this record:

James Powell
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name James Powell
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 7
Birth Date abt 1858
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 2 Oct 1865
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name City of Cork

Travelling with a Mary Powell, 60 - possibly his grandmother ??


I know they're all common names, and I maybe forcing my theory to fit the record -
or vice versa!

Argyle Gran

Just talking out loud! Thomas and Mary married in 1878. Annoyingly, there is no address on the marriage certificate but they married in Bedwelty Parish Church. At the time of Jane's birth registered in Pontypridd under mmn Walters, the address was Penygraig Ystradyfodwg. By 1881 at the census, they had moved to Morgan Street in Cardiff St Mary. Both Sidney's and Clifford's births were registered in Cardiff (they were living in Cardiff St John) under mmn Bull.

So I have trawled the births and deaths on the assumption that anything before 1881 would be Pontypridd and after 1881, Cardiff. I searched on both Walters and Bull.

Deborah wasn't their child. There was a William Llewellyn Williams that matched the assumed search criteria but that was another Williams/Walters marriage.

There is also a John Llewellyn Williams but the mmn was Walters and was registered in Pontypridd when they were living in Cardiff. So I am discounting that one as well.

Which leaves me high and dry and run out of steam lol!

Jude

Jink20 - I think the banns you have transcribed as Bule is the correct one. The actual certificate is on FMP and Ancestry and is transcribed on Ancestry as Diana Ball. The transcription on FMP shows Diana (not Dinah) as a spinster but the certificate states widow aged 25 which fits. Father is William Powell an ostler which also fits. Where did you find the banns? I can't find them only the marriage certificate.
Groom is William Walter rather than Walters and the father is John, a farmer. This didn't fit with the 1851 census I had found but I have found one which does match, and as per the wrong one, siblings names match the names they chose for their children so I think it's a fair bet that this nails the marriage.

Argyle Gran, that immigration record pops up in my hints. Her name is Dinah Powell and she is married to Walter Powell so don't think it is her. I can't find that marriage though albeit I am not really interested in finding it because I am sure it is not her.

Deborah is not Jane and Thomas' child.

So I am still stuck on finding where all parties were at the 1861 census :-(

Jude

1911 census says they had had four children, of whom two had died.

Yes, Argyll Gran, I had noticed that. In fact, it's what started the interest in this family.

I know that Jane and Sidney/Sydney were still alive in 1911, and that Clifford died in infancy. Have you identified the fourth child? No I haven't found a child yet. That Deborah one seems a good shout. I'll have a look later.

Regarding the travelling to the USA, I think that that Dinah is someone who married a Powell (I will check later but it rings bells).

Jink20, I will have a looksee at these later as well!

Jude