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Joanne, She is in fact a bitter old woman (she's about 15 years older than me) who has had at least 3 husbands, has about 5 or 6 children (not sure!), and is estranged from most of them!! What is worse, is that she rules her 2 surviving sisters and has them also estranged from their nieces and nephews ' 'cos she's our sister and we have to stick together'! She never lets you forget that she had that 2 years of comparative luxury, plus the fact that she wasn't allowed to go to grammar school 'cos the 2nd eldest daughter was already there and parents couldn't afford two uniforms. Thank heavens she lives in another country and I only see her at 5 or 10 years intervals when we go down under!! Sylvia (now in Canada!)

Hi Sylvia I had to smile at the remark of her having to come back down to earth!! It's possible I will request more information regarding the Kennedy family to see if this could be a possibility. I'm not aware of him living a lavish lifestyle as according to his grandson, he was in the navy (submarines) and when he left he had a garage working as a mechanic and always struggled for money,but he had a lot of time for his grandchildren! But anythings possible it seems in those days there were lots of skeletons, but I will definately look at this option. Many thanks Joanne

Cheers Kim I will. Many thanks Joanne

Another possibility for you. One of my uncles had a large family, the last birth being twin girls born prematurely in 1931. His wife's sister had one son, and said she would take one of the older children 'while things got sorted out'. The daughter who went to Leeds (from Oldham!) was the 3rd eldest child, born in 1926. She lived with her aunt for at least 2 years, and had several advantages, not least being sent for elocution lessons so that even now she speaks completely differently from the rest of her family. Why was she the chosen one? No idea! What I do know is that it left one heck of a chip on her shoulder when she had to return home and lose the 'privileges' of living in a small family with more money available for luxuries! Is this another possible explanation for Herbert not admitting to his 'birth' name?

Joanne , The first thing I would do is send for his birth certificate . That way you can make sure his parents are correct . I would also work backwards and see if there is any older sister , who could have in fact been his mother . If you find one ,check marrages against Kennedy. It is very long winded but ,solved the mystery for my family tree. Good luck Kim x

Hi Mary My Great Grandmother Nellie Sparrow was Herberts sister they were born in Corse, Gloucestershire, but the family ended up in Oldham, Lancashire, not sure when the moved up, however, the familly tales said that Herbert took a direct hit in the war in London?? No-one has ever questioned this, I have found through Ancestry Herberts grandson who unfortunately didn't know about his adoption until they found his death certificate and realised that his name wasn't really kennedy but Sparrow. Presumably then his death certificate notes his biological name therefore recently he has taken up the finding of his family through the internet and found me. He has confirmed to me he spent his time in Enfield as that is where his mother originated where he worked as a mechanic after leaving the navy. I am new at this so please bear with me, I hope I have answered your question. Many thanks Joanne

Joanne, to go back to my original question, how do you know that the Herbert Kennedy aka Sparrow in the death certificate was born in Corse in 1897? Do you have any definite information, or is it just a guess based on the age given in the death certificate?

Joanne I don't think it was particularly unusual for a child from a large, poor, family, to go to live with another, better off family, who could at least feed and clothe him! It might have started as a casual thing and then gone on to become permanent. I would investigate the link between the two families - employer, perhaps? OC

Thanks for that Kim, I never even considered that one! As far as I have been able to locate, he had two living sisters Grace and Nellie. Grace born 1892 and Nellie 1901, so it wasn't one of them, although family rumour had it that there were about 17 children in all and that there were sets of twins, but i've never had anything to confirm this. Many thanks Joanne

Alice and Thomas were in their fortys, did they have a daughter who could have been Herberts mother ? If she then went on to get married , he may have gone to live with her and her new husband . This happened to me with one of my ancestors . Kim x

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you who gave some input regarding my entry. I will ask my relative to check the details out on herberts marriage certificate and I will also put these questions to him. Thanks Sam, Alexandra, Scarlett Ribbons and Mary. Hope I haven't missed anyone out. Any other information you come up with I would always be interested. You have given me some avenues to check!! Many thanks Joanne

submitted so be wary --------------------------------------------------- Archibald Tom Sparrow Christening: 05 MAY 1890 Corse, Gloucester, England Parents: Father: Thomas Sparrow Family Mother: Alice Portman ------------------------------------------ Edgar Alfred Sparrow Christening: 19 DEC 1887 Corse, Gloucester, England Parents: Father: Thomas Sparrow Family Mother: Alice Portman ----------------------------------------------------- Reginald Lot Sparrow Christening: 02 DEC 1894 Corse, Gloucester, England Parents: Father: Thomas Sparrow Family Mother: Alice Portman -----------------------------------------------------------

it would be interesting to know more about the Kennedy family

Hi Joanne, Yes I did get your reply, I'll post it here so that everyone can see: Sorry Sam his name was Herbert Sparrow aka Kennedy, he was born in 1897 in Corse, Gloucestershire. I have located him in the census records last one being 1901 with his family where the youngest of his siblings was one year old. I found out off another relative of his, who has just started his family tree so we are trying to find out together. There was a death certificate which showed his original name of Sparrow, but the family only ever knew him of Kennedy until this paperwork got found as he never spoke of his real family. Does this help?? Many thanks

How do you know that the Herbert Sparrow in Gloucs. is the same person as the one in Enfield?

Does his birth cert hold any clues? who does he name as his father on his marriage cert? This must be the man you describe, a per 1901 census Alice Sparrow 43 Corse, Gloucestershire, Archie Sparrow 11 ' Edger Sparrow 13 ' Grace Sparrow 9 ' Harold Sparrow 2 ' Herbert Sparrow 4 ' Nellie Sparrow 1 ' Reginald Sparrow 6 ' Thomas Sparrow 44 Eldersfield, Worcestershire Name: Herbert Sparrow Age: 4 Estimated birth year: abt 1897 Relation: Son Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Alice Gender: Male Where born: Corse, Gloucestershire, England Civil parish: Corse Ecclesiastical parish: Corse St Margaret County/Island: Gloucestershire Country: England Are the Kennedy and Sparrows related? ---------------------------------------------------------- 1891 there is a william as well Alice Sparrow 33 Archiebald T Sparrow 7 Edgar A Sparrow 3 Thomas Sparrow 33 William E Sparrow 9 Civil parish: Corse Ecclesiastical parish: Corse Town: Preston County/Island: Gloucestershire Country: England --------------------------------------------- Thomas & Alice in 1881, I'd assume, not long married Alice Sparrow 24 Thomas Sparrow 24 Where born: Corse, Gloucestershire, England Civil parish: Eldersfield County/Island: Worcestershire ---------------------------------------------------------- Right names, right places... maybe his parents marraige Alice Portman 1877 Jul-Aug-Sep Upton Upon Severn Worcestershire Thomas Sparrow 1877 Jul-Aug-Sep Upton Upon Severn

I am interested to see that his adoptive siblings cast him out when their parents died - it could point to him maybe being a half sibling - following on from my suggestion that his mother may have had him as a result of an affair and her husband not wanting the child with them and the rest of the family - perhaps his real father adopted him but his own children were not happy about it? Its a long shot but you never know! That or he was a problem child and was just too much of a problem child and angered his adoptive siblings. Or they just felt umbridge towards a child who was not their natural brother who was brought into their family and may have been spoiled or had a bit more attention than they did?

Thanks for your questions. There were eight children in the family, and believe there maybe more, he was number six and there were two younger than him, some of your suggestions maybe a possibility, I did ask the other family member if the people that took him on had any other children which they did, two. Whom I believe when his adopted parents died, the natural siblings cast him out. I just don't know where to start. Any ideas anyone ??? Many thanks Joanne P.s Sorry Sam I clicked on your name instead of replying to the board don't know if your reply got to you?? I'm new at this.

I suppose there could be a number of reasons - Could he have been a problem child - too much of a handful for his parents? Could he have been a gifted child and his parents thought he would do better with another family who could provide for him more? Could he have been the result of an extra-marital affair and his 'father' was not happy about him being in the house with the rest of his natural children and demanded he be removed? Could he have been not a natural child of that couple and they were fostering him and he ended up being fostered and then adopted by another family?

Apologies if this is a daft question but how do you know he went to live with another family? Maybe he got a in London, you don't say how old he was. Formal adoption didn't start until c1924. Sam x