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Jenny, we have decided that there are two boys - see the two birth regs. The Briggs Hartley - there is a boy registered as Ralph Briggs Hartley - who would appear to be this chaps son - therefore you can scrub that family off . We still have a birth reg of the other Ralph (I guess no one has looked for a death?) who we assume is the son of your John and Mary but whom we cant find anywhere as yet. Thats why I asked dads job on the birth cert, hoping he may be a soldier or someone who would travel possibly taking the family with him. But dont seem we have that option either now!

Hi Ladies, I really can't thank you all enough, would you like to let me know what you have decided, is it Ralph Briggs Hartley? or are we sticking with Ralph with parents John and Mary. Regards Mary

I think that Ralph Briggs Hartley is the boy with Briggs Jennifer.

1871 census for Briggs There is a John aged 3 mths Briggs Hartley 1 Elizabeth Hartley 30 Elizabeth Ellen Hartley 9 James Hartley 14 John Hartley 47 John Hartley 3 months John William Hartley 20 Mary Hartley 46 Mary Jane Hartley 12 and parent Mary and John what do you think?

No, I couldnt see him with Briggs but unfortunately I did find a Ralph Briggs Hartley being born - oh - scuppered that one then. Name: Ralph Briggs Hartley Year of Registration: 1893 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Blackburn County: Lancashire Volume: 8e Page: 402 (click to see others on page)

Briggs Hartley 21 Elizabeth E Hartley 29 James Hartley 34 Margaret Hartley 66 Mary J Hartley 31 Mary J Hartley 16 Briggs in 1891 but no John Not a lot of help

Well, its the grandparents house so the grandchildren dont NECESSARILY have to belong to he son in law Briggs and his wife Annie though in normal circumstances you would expect that to be the case. To be honest, I think we are grasping at straws here! BTW, what was his fathers occupation on the birth cert???

Heathr I have to agree with you, do you think maybe the parents went off somewhere and the other grandson isn't Ralph's brother but a cousin and Briggs and Annie are the cousins parents. Regards Mary

Hi Jen, thanks for replying, it all fits in but the parents names don't match the birth cert. I am at a loss as the birth cert. definately says his parents are John and Mary Hartley. Mary

Weve all seen that one but the parents are wrong - Maryann has told us they are John and Mary Hartley. All Im thinking now is whether we are assuming Briggs and Annie are parents - it doesnt actually say they are - they are son in law and daughter and though it would normally follow the two kids in the grandparents house would be theirs - may be they arent? Which leads to the question, if this was the right boy, where are Mary and John (or possibly Thomas!) Hartley, his parents.

Name: Ralph Hartley Age: 7 Estimated birth year: abt 1894 Relation: Grandson Father's name: Briggs Mother's name: Annie Gender: Male Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Barrow IN Furness Ecclesiastical parish: St John County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Barrow in Furness Sub-registration district: Barrow in Furness ED, institution, or vessel: 40 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 35 Household Members: Name Age Annie Hartley 32 -----dau Briggs Hartley 31 ----son in law Ralph Hartley 7 --------g/s Thomas Hartley 6 ------g/s Robert Satterthwaite 64 head Sarah Satterthwaite 65 wife 1901 census Living at 13 Penmon Cottages Barrow in Furness Does this help Jen

On the 1901 census, Ralph Hartley, born 1893-4, Manchester is living with his parents Briggs & Annie Hartley and grandparents, Robert & Sarah Satterthwaite in Barrow-in-Furness, Blackburn, Lancashire.

Heather it should have read...........althouh the dates are right, am I right in assuming etc., Regards Mary

Sorry Maryann, havent been of much use, Im working and at same time dealing with trauma in sons life by phone! LOL. I will try to concentrate. I ditched the Briggs one - I dont think thats right. I am wondering if they wandered over the border into Wales.

Thank you so much ladies.........Brenda oddly enough I sent for the marriage cert. you mentioned and the names all fitted except Ralph's father was shown on the marriage cert as Thomas Hartley and the name Pegg threw me as I always thought it was Jackson so I thought I had the wrong cert. but, on reflection I think you are right and maybe Jane was married before, so maybe I should now be looking for a marriage between Pegg and Jackson, I think I will try that, many thanks. Heather, you have been really helpful and I really appreciate, the only thing with the info you gave me is although the dates am I right in assuming that Annie and Briggs are Ralph's parents or are they his grandparents as I'm pretty sure they were John and Mary, confused what do you think.....I have to say this is the nearest I have got to finding info about them. Regards Mary

Looks like his birth: Name: Ralph Hartley Year of Registration: 1893 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Manchester (1837-1924) County: Lancashire Volume: 8d Page: 334 (click to see others on page)

Sorry, phone ringing, just realised that the parents were living with them and that the father was Briggs not Ralph. Sorry Im working at the moment so Im having to pop in and out.

I think I'm going mad...........no I want to find Ralph Hartley born Manchester 1893 with parents John and Mary I do have his birth cert. Mary

LOL, its probably me Maryann! But try to look for one def thing at a time. Lets put it like this for me and anyone else? You want to find Ralph Hartley born 1893 in Manchester with parents called John and Mary in any census. By 1916 he was living in Weston Super Mare. In 1917 his wife Jane was in Bristol. He died in 1917 in WW1 and you have the death details.

Hi Heather, I am trying to trace him and his ancesters, the information I have is his birth cert....Ralph Hartley born 17/05/1893 Manchester, mothers name...Mary Hartley formerly Buckley..fathers name.John Hartley ........then I have my mothers birth cert......Marion Hartley born 28/01/1913 born Stroud....mothers name...Jane Hartley formerly Jackson, fathers name.......Ralph Hartley......then information I have been given from the Royal British Legion regarding Ralph's death are his wifes name and his parents names. I can't find any marriage certs for either Ralph and Jane or his parents John and Mary.....So I thought if I could find out where he was living when he enlisted and work backwards it might help. Thanks for replying, much appreciated, does that make it any clearer? Regards Mary