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Hello Maureen, Well my thoughts against the one family being wrong is that there is a son called Charles but his year of birth does not match with the Charles I know of in my family. However, it is possible that one child died and they had another using the same name - especially as Dad's name was Charles. However, the plus side is that in the address is 8 Paradise Street Lambeth and I KNOW that my family were living at 21 Paradise Street in 1893 as they had a child at that address. I am going to send off for a certificate of one of the children on the 1891 census to confirm the mother's maiden name. I have sent you a PM. Many thanks.

Janie, Have sent you the image for 1891 family. Now found the same family in 1881and sent you the details. Not convinced that any of the families are correct. Maureen

Hello Maureen I am looking at the 1881 entry first: This is difficult. The names are correct. Place of birth for Charles is correct. However, Buckinghamshire is way off for the place of birth of Marian. The years of birth are not quite right but not too far out. Also, I would have thought it unlikely that they would have had a servant unless she was a visitor. Are there any children mentioned here? 1891: Looking at Charles again the birth year is slightly out but the place of birth is correct again. Could this be the same couple that you found on the 1881? With regard Marian, I looked up where the birth mentioned i.e. 'Old Ford London' could be and Wikipedia told me Tower Hamlets - Bow, so that is not a great distance from Newington. Now the children. There is a Charles born 1881, but we know that the child named 'Charles' in the family I am looking for was born about c1884/5. Could it be that one child died and they named another with the same name? I also note that this family has a boy called 'Willie' aged 1. but the Charles and Marian I am looking for had a William born a couple of years later in 1986. This is tough. I don't know. On the other hand, how many couples could there be in the same time period called Charles and Marian and the Charles is consistently from Bethnal Green?

Morning Maureen / Rose Thank you for your 'finds', I am mulling them over at the moment and will come back later on this afternoon. Cheers.

1891 also keep coming back to this one but the occupation is wrong Name: Charles Harris Age: 38 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853 Relation: Head Spouses's Name: Maryan Gender: Male Where Born: Bethnal Green, London, England Civil parish: Edmonton Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Edmonton Sub registration district: Edmonton ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Annie L Harris 13 born Finsbury Charles Harris 38 Charles Harris 10 born Finsbury Emily F Harris 3 Maryan Harris 36 born Old Ford, London Willie Harris 1 Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1083; Folio 25; Page 42; GSU roll: 6096193 Marian can be spelt so many different ways but this is best match on ages

Good morning Janie, 1881 there is this entry which I keep coming back to - names and ages are a good match but not the place of birth for Marian or the occupation of Charles. Name: Charles Harris Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858 Relation: Head Spouses's Name: Marian Gender: Male Where Born: Middx City, Middlesex, England Civil parish: St Mary Islington County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 13 Richmond Villas Condition as to marriage: Married Occupation: Traveller (Provision Trade) Registration district: Islington Sub registration district: Islington East ED, institution, or vessel: 39 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Charles Harris 23 Marian Harris 24 born Taplow, Buckinghamshire Emily Page 18 servant Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 261; Folio: 41; Page: 34; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341057 Presume you will have ruled this one out. Maureen

Hello Maureen / Rose Thanks for sticking with me. This is what we have on the marriage certificate from the year 1876. Charles HARRIS 21 bacherlor - Horsekeeper Father Samuel HARRIS - Horsekeeper Marian Maria HAMMOND 20 spinster - father John HAMMOND - tailor. (note here: The birth certificate for Marian states father's name as William Jonathan HAMMOND). Witnesses: Henry FRANCIS & Emma Laura HAMMOND. (Note: To date no record has been found for Emma Laura HAMMOND). The address for the couple is just simply: Emmanuel. They were married in Emmanuel Parish Church, Camberwell, Surrey. We do know of one older child i.e. Charles William HARRIS. I do not hold a birth cert for him but born circa 1884/85 and probably somewhere around the Bethnal Green/Newington/Lambeth areas. I have worked for a long time on the HARRIS family and the only sure reference to them is with the mistranscribed name of HERRIS in Chelsea on the 1901. Note: after 1900's the family (at least Charles & Marian) remained in the Chelsea area until death. Again, thanks,

Janie, I KNOW you're looking for the marriage of Marian's parents but unless we can find her on a census records we don't have much to work with. If we can find her in 1860 we might discover her parents were in their 40s and perhaps married before civil registration started. That might be one reason for the missing marriage. We need to start forwards and then work backwards. Too bad there are no children older than 10 in the 1901 census. Can you list Charles' occupation on the marriage cert, witnesses and any addresses? There might be more clues there. Rose

Maureen Yes you have found the HARRIS family in the 1901, they are mistranscribed as HERRIS. Are you saying that you have found THAT family in 1891?

Was hoping that the 1901 would have children that could be found in 1891 but no such luck. Mistranscribed as Herris. They are not at the same address in 1891 as in 1901. Back to the drawing board again Maureen

Hello Rose Thanks. I know where she is on the 1901 census. Her married name was HARRIS but right now I am interested in her before then when she was Marian HAMMOND. It would be nice to find her with the HAMMOND family in the 1861 & 1871 census returns and discover her siblings and a bit more about her parents. I am also interested in finding the marriage reference for her parents which so far I have not been able to do. Many thanks,

Janie, So what was her surname then in 1901? Who were her children? What was her husband's name? Rose

Thank you K, On Marian's birth certificate it gives her parents details as follows: William Jonathan Hammond - occupation tailor. Emma Louisa Hammond formerly Staples. I am therefore looking for the union of William Jonathan Hammond and Emma Louisa Staples. Thank you for looking anyway. It was nice of you.

Thank you Rose. I have the birth, marriage and death certs for Marian. I have her on the 1901 where she is married. On each occasion the name used for her was Marian. In the 1901 census (the only one I have found her on) she gives place of birth as Newington. The birth place is confirmed in the birth certificate (details given above). I think the family are 'hiding' somewhere in the sea of mistranscriptions. Janie

Is this the parents marriage? Marriages Dec 1854 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hammond William Bethnal Green 1c 515 Morss Elizabeth Bethnal Green 1c 515 Nash Emma Bethnal Green 1c 515 Riley Richard Bethnal Green 1c 515

Was just trying to see where Marian states she was born or by what name she went by. It would help immensely if you could post the details from the census records you have. Rose

Cheers Rose, She was married in 1876. It is Hammond family that I want to find. Marian was born 1857 at 3 Gloster Place, Westmorland Road, Newington in the Paris of St Peter Walworth. I haven't even been able to find a marriage cert for her parents. Are you able to help please?

Janie, Where is Marian in 1881-1901? Rose

Thank you very much Maureen, I do already have the marriage certificate. I now have the names of Marian's parents and am trying to find any census records for the family. I have checked the 1861 and 1881 myself but haven't found them. Probably mis-transcribed somewhere. I am also looking for the marriage reference for Emma Louisa Staples and William Jonathan Hammond. I spent half of last night looking at a variety of combinations but could not find that either! Thank you for trying to help me though.

Just thought I would check back on this thread and see if any progress. There is this possible marriage for a Marian Maria Hammond Marriages Jun 1876 Camberwell 1d 990 Charles Harris or James Skinner Maureen