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Julie, I know what you mean about going round in circles and clutching at straws because that is exactly how I feel at the moment. The problem is that the only known facts are -, Elizabeth born 1852, address at time of birth registration 7 Grundy Street, Bromley father Francis Goulding occ. boilermaker mother Ann Goulding, late Freeman, formerly Delay Elizabeth Goulding married Charles Bouverie in 1871, marriage certificate shows father as Francis Goulding, boilermaker. I can find Elizabeth on the census in 1881, 1891 and 1901, and have a possible for her in 1871. I really think I am going to have to forget about this one for a while and move on to another of my brickwalls!! Thank you very much for all your help today.

hiya, i really think we need to sit down and evaluate exactly what we have got, the facts,and try and go from there, i'm just clutching at straws here, and wondering if we are going round in circles Julie

hiya, have you seen this???? 1841 View Record Ann Delay abt 1827 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record Edward Delay abt 1836 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record Johanah Delay abt 1826 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record John Delay abt 1838 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record Margaret Delay abt 1834 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record Mary Delay abt 1796 Essex, England East Ham Essex View Record Ann Moloney abt 1771 Ireland East Ham Essex think its connected????? Julie

nah, u not i'm here LOL it doesnt help that there are two lots of surnames, you are wary as if they kept the freeman name or adopted the goulding try as i might, i cannot see them on 1841, have even resorted to looking under nancy for ann, and still nothing, my only other therory is that the children had other first names, and the ones were looking at are there middle names Julie

Ignore my last message - it doesn´t fit in with the Freeman children!! Am getting totally confused here! So if the marriage I have found in 1843 is the correct one then the 1851 census I have found cannot be right. (Losing the plot here - talking to myself!!!)

Julie, That could be her in 1861 - will now have a look to see if I can find her in 1851, Have just found this possible marriage on freeBMD Marriages Dec 1843 Freeman Anne London 2 77 Golding Francis London 2 77 The date certainly fits in with the Freeman children in the 1851 census. Problem - if I get the certificate how is it going to help me?

hiya, sorry had dinner, but i have found this, 1861 Name: Ellen Freeman Age: 23 Estimated birth year: abt 1838 Relation: Attendant Household: View other family members Gender: Female Where born: Campden Town, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Kensington St Mary Abbott Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip Town: Brompton County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: View image Source information: RG9/22 Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: Brompton ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Folio: 75 Page: 10 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 44 GSU Number: 542558 julie

Well Julie, I am going to have to leave this here for a while as OH is wanting to be fed! Thanks for your help this afternoon - might nudge the thread up a bit later to see if any of the evening detectives can help out! Elaine

hiya, i'll have a look for ellen as well, was looking for sarah, but that is a law unto itself, feel like a one legged duck swimming in circles, this family are just as difficult as some of mine LOL Julie

Julie, yes think you may be right with Joannah. The other thing I was thinking of is that if this is the right family then I should be able to find Ellen Freeman on the 1841 census with mother Ann and father William Freeman - but can´t find that either!! (Ellen is actually aged 11 on the image, therefore born in 1840 not 1847) And yes - I know you want to help and I really appreciate your input.

me again, iovanna, or whoever, is JOANNAH, possibly Susannah, as the first letter of name is same as sarah last child, but it also matches with the J of james/john etc.. i know it dont help much, but i really do want to help Julie

I agree that it could well be the right family - names and occupations fit, plus the closeness of the address - that´s why I need to find that lot in the 1861 to see if Elizabeth is with them!!! Bacardi and coke now by my side - perhaps it will inspire me!!!

elaine, i have foundcensus details for /freeman/goulding family, now to me the wife's name looks like Jannia, i wonder if it is your family, and that the father is actually james francis? i may just be rambling, but it would fit, maybe i'mjust trying to 'make' it fit?? julie

and also on the 1851 census one of the Freeman daughters has the name Ivonnah Freeman - any suggestions what this might be?

Julie, could you do me a favour and look up the 1851 census - wife´s name has been transcribed as Jamia but am not sure that is what it says - have you got anyother suggestions for it?

also - if wife Ann is only 17 then I would have thought that rather young for a second marriage. On Elizabeth´s birth certificate she is Ann Goulding, late Freeman, formerly Delay

Its OK Julie - have got access to Ancestry. With the occupation of salesman I really am doubtful if its the one I am looking for.

hiya, even though it doesnt say as much, have saved image, it looks like patrick is francis's brother, and ann his francis's wife even though she's only 17, wasnt there a patrick on the other info you found?? If you have msn messenger i can send you image, his ocupation was salesman (francis), patrick was errand boy, Julie

Francis is a salesman in that census - where as he is listed as a boilermaker on Elizabeths birth certificate in 1852 and marriage certificate in 1871.

i know its not srictly what you asked for, but i think this is them, 1851 >> Ann Goulding abt 1834 St Georges in East Lodger St Giles in the Fields Middlesex >>> Francis Goulding abt 1831 St Georges in East Lodger St Giles in the Fields Middlesex >>> Patrick Goulding abt 1837 St Georges in East Lodger St Giles in the Fields Middlesex View Record Ann Kelly abt 1806 Ireland Wife St Giles in the Fields Middlesex View Record John Kelly abt 1811 Ireland Head St Giles in the Fields Middlesex will have a look at image julie