Find Ancestors

Well Done Deb. Thank you so much for putting your time into finding MY family, I really appreciate it, you are so kind. All I need now is to order certificates to back all your hard work up! I will need a mortgage soon to pay for the list of certificates I have made.

Many thanks.
Dee

Thanks Ozi!

Patting myself on the back........lol

Deb:)

Well done, Deb. Looks like you've cracked it.


Ozi.

BINGO!!!......I was right. He was born illegitimate. I've found his parent's marriage in 1859.



Name: William Howells
Year of Registration: 1859
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a


William Howells 1859 Jan-Feb-Mar Bridgnorth Shropshire

Ann Palmer 1859 Jan-Feb-Mar Bridgnorth Shropshire



Deb:)

And in all likelihood, the same William again. He must have been illegitimate.


1861 England Census
about William Palmer
Name: William Palmer
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Astley Abbotts
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Bridgnorth
Sub-registration district: Chetton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Howells 31
Elisha Howells 60
Thomas Howells 1
William Howells 28
William Palmer 8

This is probably the same William as the one in 1881:

1871 England Census
about William Palmer
Name: William Palmer
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Ludlow, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Stottesden
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Cleobury Mortimer
Sub-registration district: Stottesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 14
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Corfield 12
Emma Elcock 15
Betsy Farmer 51
George Farmer 45
William Palmer 17
Albert Rhoden 40
George Thomas 50


Again, he's not with his family so the marriage cert is a must.

Deb:)

I think you might be right about William in 1881. He's the only one that seems to fit. It's probably best for you to order his marriage cert to find out his father's name so that you can go back further.


BOWEN, James Head Married M 50 Farmer 131 Acres
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, Ann Wife Married F 35
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, George Son Single M 10 Scholar
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, Edwin Son Single M 8 Scholar
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, Emily Daughter Single F 5
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, Julie Daughter Single F 4
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, James Son Single M 2
Cleehill
Shropshire
BOWEN, Earnest Son Single M 4
Farlow
Shropshire
CARTWRIGHT, Mary Servant Single F 25 Domestic Servant
Abercerve
Wales
PALMER, William Servant Single M 23 Farmers Servt Indoor
Shropshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
2627 Folio:
5 Page:
2

Registration District:
Cleobury Mortimer Sub District:
Stottesden EnumerationDistrict:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Farlow Municipal Borough:
Address:
Farlow, Farlow County:
Shropshire

Hi DT,

I'm back after a good night's sleep with a clear head and ready to tackle the Palmers again. I'm on Australian time, so 9 hours ahead of you?

I've found Violet in 1901. I was thinking about her being raised a Palmer so she probably went by that name. And sure enough, her she is. Poor little thing. Fancy having to go into domestic service at the age of 14.


Name: Violet Palmer
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Wolverhampton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 20
Household Members: Name Age
Fred Hill 23
Henry Hill 21
Saliana Hill 50
Thomas Hill 61
Violet Palmer 14




Deb:)

Still struggling...
There is a William Palmer in Farlow, Cleobury Mortimer in 1881. A farmers servant indoors. Showing as age 23 and born Shropshire (no area), this is the nearest one to William's age in 1891 & 1901 where he was 35 and 45.

Can't find William Leonard.

I appreciate the help on this one Deb.

As they say "two heads are better than one".

There are a few discrepancies and I' not sure which angle to take from here.

I think I have found Annie Lloyd on 1901 census: age 17 Domestic Housemaid born Bridgnorth (Neenton, Bridgnorth on 1891 census). at Ladywood, Birmingham. Think it is the one.

Can't find Violet on a 1901 census, she would have been 14 and I would have thought with her mum. There are a few deaths which are possible, but not in the exact areas we are dealing with. So ???

Will see if I can find William Leonard after 1901 and William senior in 1881 now I think.

It's the two youngest that we're having problems with. I wish they could be as easy as the rest!!!!

I agree about Frederick's birth. That makes sense. But if Edward is James Edward Dec 92, then his age on census would be 8. So, two years out again. But then if you're right, Arthur could be the Arthur James born in Wolverhampton in 96! I think you're onto something here. It fits!

Deb:)

Whats this sound like?

The birth of Frederick in 1892 Mar qtr Bridnorth...he could have been born late 1891 (which ties in with the 1901 census where he is shown as 10). Then there is a James Edward Palmer born 1892 Dec qtr Wolverhampton and Arthur born in W'ton in 1896????

I think that the Arthur in W'ton 1896 would be right as they were living there in 1901. 1899 would mean that he would be 2 in 1901...surely they wouldn't make that mistake with the ages? So perhaps Edward was W'ton too between 1892 & 1896....will have another look!

As far as the distance between the places are concerned...it depends on how you look at it...the range of discriptions (herefordshire/Shropshire/Worcestershire) and Herefordshire/Shropshire there are a few miles apart. Bridgnorth is not far from W'ton but I'm not sure about Cleobury Mortimer.

Recap:

Annie and Violet (off 1891 census) were Lloyds not Palmers.

Ellen Lloyd married William Palmer in 1887 Cleobury Mortimer

Violet Mary M Lloyd born 1886 Cleobury Mortimer

Beatrice Palmer born 1888 Cleobury Mortimer (aston Botterell on 1891 census, only 3 miles south from Cleobury North)

William Leonard Palmer born 1889 Cleobury Mortimer

Frederick Palmer born 1892 Bridgnorth, Salop (Neenton on 1891 census which is 1 mile north of Cleobury North)

Ernest Edward Palmer born 1897 Cleobury Mortimer (not sure if this is the right one)

They must have moved from Neenton, Salop to W'ton between 1892 and 1896 when Arthru was born so Edward could have been born in either place....need to check for a birth in W'ton between these two dates.

Arthur George Palmer 1895 Bridgnorth, Salop (not sure if this is the right one)

Arthur Palmer B1896 W'ton more likely.

On 1891 census, Ellen is born in Stoke Saint Milborough which is about 5 miles South West of Cleobury North. If the pair married in 1887 in Cleobury Mortimer, where was William in 1881? Unmarried or widowed? Perhaps Annie was his from a previous marriage? The Annie Lloyd birth you give me is in Montgomeryshire. Montgomery is heading too far west into Wales I think.

Dee

So, I'm thinking that if they had William Leonard's age wrong, they probably had the two youngest wrong too. The birth you found for Edward in 97 and the birth for Arthur in 99 just might be right.

Are these districts fairly wide-spread or not to far from each other?

Deb:)

What about these two for Arthur:

Name: Arthur Palmer
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 634


Name: Arthur James Palmer
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 696



Deb:)

These are the births that could be Edward and Annie, but I'm not sure about any of them. There's no first name Edward within the right time frame. And I wonder if they'd have named two sons William!


Name: William Edward Palmer
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Atcham
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 675



Name: Albert Edward Palmer
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Stourbridge
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands, Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 166



Name: Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Forden
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 177



Name: Elizabeth Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 647



Name: Mary Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 584




Deb:)

Found Edward.Ernest Edward Palmer 1897 Cleobury Mortimer Dec 1/4 6a 533

There was another entry for 1898 of a William Edward Palmer....but another William...doubt it!

The only doubt I have is that we have Frederick and Arthur George born in Bridgnorth and edward was born between according to the census....so the Arthur George would be wrong in 1895?

Yes Deb
I think your right on the Leonard Palmer (william Leonard born 1889)

OK. I'm sure we'll work this out eventually...lol

I think that the Leonard on the 1891 and the William on the 1901 is the same person. The birth ref that I found for William Leonard might actually be right. His age may have been recorded incorrectly on census.

There's a couple of births for Annie around 1884/85.

The birth places for William still read the same. Delbury, Salop and Coaldale, Salop.

Deb:)

Do you think Delbury should read Ledbury? Its not far away to the areas we are looking at.