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I am trying to trace my husband's great grandfather. His name was John Robert Matthews.

I have his marriage certificate which states he was 23 in November 1901, which would make him born c1878. I also have a photo of his grave which also corresponds with this date.

On his marriage certificate it shows that he was living at The Barracks, Chapeltown Road, Leeds and that he was a driver in the Royal Field Artilery.

I have looked on the 1901 census and found a John Matthews in Leeds who is a driver in the Royal Field Artilery and it gives his place of birth as Middlesex.

I have found a John Robert Matthews born in 1878 in Holborn in Middlesex, so I have got the birth certificate. However, the father's name on the birth certificate is given as Henry Matthews, a ginger beer maker, but on the marriage certificate it is shown as Frederick Matthews, a confectioner (deceased). On the birth certificate it gives his mother's name as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers, and they were living at 4 Gastigny Place, St. Lukes in Holborn.

I can't find any trace of John on any census's before 1901 nor can I find a marriage or indeed any trace at all of a Caroline Spillers. I don't even know if this birth is for the same John Robert Matthews, but can't find any other John Robert Matthews which would fit.

Can anyone advise me on where to go from here?

Many thanks,
Joanne.

Does anyone have any ideas please?

Joanne.

I,m a bit lost . You say you got a birth cert but the fathers name & occupation didnt tie up. So are you thinking its not the right birth cert ?if so its not worth looking for a marriage for the parents quoted

Shirley,
I don't know if it's the right one or not. As I say, the father's name and occupation doesn't tie up but I wanted to find some sort of record for Caroline Spillers and Henry Matthews so that I can rule this out for sure. I can't find another John Robert Matthews listed in the births, so I don't know whether this is the right one or if he is registered under another name.

Claire,
Yes, this is the birth certificate which I ordered. I have been through BMD index on Ancestry year by year but can't find any other John Robert Matthews listed. I've also looked for Mathews.

I think I'm at the point where either the birth certificate is right, but then why can't I find him on any census's, or the birth certificate is wrong, in which case I would presume that he was registered under another name. If this is the case how on earth would I go about finding him?

Joanne.

Joanne,
ive looked and looked again, im struggling to put anything together, i cant find a frederick and caroline matthews together in a census.
i cant find any caroline spillers for births there are a few caroline spiller.
im wondering if she was a caroline, my gt gt grandmother had a habit of changing her first name through census, her name was ann but shes been anne hannah and even betsey on my gt grandfathers birth certificate.
Ive tried spillers/matthews marriages but nothing,
i will get back to you if i find anything.

Was his Army number on his marriage cert and who did he marry?
There is a John Matthews in the Ancestry Army records with a mother Caroline. Wife's name Alice Arnold

Another possible?

John Robb Matthew Shoreditch June 1877 1c 100

Since Ancestry has the 1881 transcription with occupation, I tried looking for Fred* Mat* in London that year. There are several bakers born in Germany working in London, not all of them Matthews, so there may be a remote possibility that your John was born to a German father who later anglicised the name?

Have just checked the marriage on FreeBMD. The WWI pensions record is the right one. If you do not have ancestry, PM me your email and I will send it to you.

According to it, his mother died in 1899.

WOW, thank you so much Potty.

Yes, this is the right one. He did marry Alice Arnold.

I have Ancestry, how do I look at this record?

Many, many thanks.

Joanne.

If you go into the "historical records" tab on the Ancestry.co.uk site, then under the search box is a list of "more collections" - click the "British Army WW1 pensions" link

It looks like he is the one born Clerkenwell 1879.

Hi Ivy,

I've looked at the Clerkenwell one (if it's the right one I'm looking at), but it doesn't state anything about his wife or mother.

Am I missing something?

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

From the listing you will see that there are supposed to be 5 images. You can go into "view record", which in this case adds the service number and the age at enlistment, or into the first image, which gives little more than his agreement to serve for a short period - image number 15385 of 18660 images. If you click next, the following four images are more useful.

If you can find a pensioner ancestor, these are rich records!

All the best

This could be Caroline's death - date is a bit out according to the Army records:

Deaths Jun 1898 (>99%)

Matthews Caroline 30 Holborn 1b 435

If you do an occupation search on the 1881, for Ginger Beer Maker. a couple come up in Hulls Road (Benjamin Knowles & his son Benjamin) the street John's mother was living in when he joined the Army. There is also a Ginger Beer factory on the same street. Coincidence?

Thank you so much for all your help. I've been jumping up and down all night after looking at the service records. This is definitely him!!!

I don't really know where to go from here.

I presume that the birth certificate which I hold is him then. Born 27/09/1878 at 4 Gastigny Place, St. Lukes, in the registration district of Holborn, sub-district of City Road, Middlesex.

The birth Certificate shows his father as Henry Matthews, Ginger Beer Maker, however, his marriage certificate shows his father as Frederick Matthews, Confectioner (deceased).

The birth certificate shows his mother as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers. The army records show his mother as dying in 1899. I have found a Caroline Spiller dying in 1899 in Kensington. This would fit if she didn't actually marry John Robert Matthews father. The birth record shows Caroline Spiller dying in 1899, born in 1831 which would mean that she was 47 when she had John. Do you think this stacks up?

Joanne.

Joanne,

Received and replied to your PM before looking here. Glad you found the record. Makes very interesting reading, doesn't it? Wonder what Alice thought of the tattoo!

Not sure about the death you found or the one I found. Mine looks too young and yours looks a bit old. Will see what I can find for the Kensington one in the censuses.

Joanne,

I cannot find anything for any of them before John's joining the army. Have searched every way I can think of.

Perhaps if you got the death cert for the Caroline who died in 1899 that may give more info.

Who registered the birth on John's cert? Was it his mother?

Thanks for your reply, Potty, both on here and by PM.

I'm still at a bit of a loss. I can't find anything which matches up with Caroline Spiller or Spillers or Matthews on the census's, nor can I find any trace of John Robert Matthews on the census's prior to 1901.

On the army records it states that his mother died 31/01/1899 and the death registration for Caroline Spiller was J/F/M 1899 in Kensington. The dates certainly stack up, but would she have had a baby at 47?

The other thing which is puzzling me is why John's father is listed as Henry on the birth certificate but Frederick on the marriage certificate.

The army records are fascinating. Yes, I bet Alice wasn't too pleased about the tattoo!!! His grandaughter (my mother in law) was called Margaret! I bet Alice wasn't happy with the choice of name her daughter called her daughter after what she had to look at on her husband's arm for all those years.

Hope you can give me a few more pointers on where I can be looking.

Thanks so much,
Joanne.

I was just typing my reply as you replied, Potty.

Yes, it was his mother who registered the birth. She is shown as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers, and living at 4 Gastigny Place, St Lukes.

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

This one is a real puzzle. I have even searched all the addresses (Gastigny Place and Hull St) on the 1881 and 1891 but can't find anything.

I wouldn't worry too much about the change of father's name. John may never have known his father or he might have died when he was young and could have been known as Fred in the family so he put down Frederick on his marriage cert (his mother being dead by that time).

As Caroline is given as next of kin on his Army record, I would think his father (if they were married) was dead by then.

I wonder if the family moved overseas?

I would get the death cert for the Caroline who died in 1899 - it might give some info, eg whether she was a widow, who registered the death or it might rule it out completly.

47 wasn't too old to have a child, although unusual but the age on the cert could be wrong - would depend on how well the person registering her death knew her.

Have to say a "ginger beer maker" and a confectioner looks a pretty close fit to me.