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Thanks Potty.

Yes, I think I do need to concentrate on a different line for now, this one is driving me mad.

I can't find any further leads at all so I might have another look in a couple of weeks and then if nothing else comes to light I will send for the Cuckfield death certificate and see if that sheds any light on anything.

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

Hope you had a good holiday.

This gets even worse - the only Henry & Caroline Spiller I can find is the one below
Neither can I find a marriage for a Jane Spiller to anyone called Gray! Have searched from 1845 to 1889.
1881 England Census
about Henry Spiller
Name: Henry Spiller
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Caroline - born Bath
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St James Clerkenwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 75 Southampton St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Dealer In Building Materials

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Pentonville
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Spiller 59
Henry Spiller 60

I would give it a rest for a while and come back to it in a few weeks. I searched for ages for my grandfather on one census. Eventually found him mistranscribed - Voslans instead of Postans!

Sorry I've been so long answering, I've just got back off holiday.

Ivy, no, I can't find any other possibilities at all.

Potty, the death certificate shows Caroline Spiller died 13/01/1899 in Kensington Infirmary. 68 years. Occupation shows as:- From 16 St. Katherines Road widow of Henry Spiller general labourer. Cause of death cancer of womb. Informant was Jane Gray, daughter, 39 Princes Road. Registered 16/01/1899.

I don't think that this is the Caroline I am looking for. Although it shows that she had been married to Henry Spiller and on John Robert Matthews birth certificate it gives his father's name as Henry, he is shown as Henry Matthews not Spiller, and Caroline is shown as Matthews formerly Spillers.

I don't know where to go from here now.

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

Are you sure the Kensington death isn't the right one? 13/31 could have been transposed somewhere along the way.

Does it say whether she was married, widowed, single ? And who registered the death? Where did she die? Let's try to find her earlier even if just to rule her out.

Hi Joanne,

I'm sorry the death certificate didn't match up.

I'd be cautious about the Cuckfield one. There is a Caroline born 1849 living at Cowfold on the 1891 census, which is in the Cuckfield registration district.

Are there any other possibles?

Hi Everyone,

I've now got the death certificate for Caroline Spiller. I'm afraid that this isn't John's mother. The date of death is shown as13/01/1899 whereas on John's army records it is shown as 31/01/1899.

I have come up with another possible death for Caroline Matthews. There is one listed J/F/M 1899 in Cuckfield, which is near Haywards Heath. Her year of birth is c1849. I have checked on the 1891 census and there are some Matthews living in Cuckfield, but not a Caroline, so perhaps she went to stay with relatives there before dying, This looks like a good possibility. What do you think?

Joanne.

Blimey, long winded!!! You're not kidding!!

I've just had a look on the 1901 census, but the number of the street I want to look at is missing. I thought that she might have left family at the address after she died.

I think I'm going to have to send for the death certificate. There's no way of knowing what, if anything, that will shed light on, but it's worth the chance.

I just want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I really appreciate all the time and effort that you have all put into helping me.

Ivy,
What you have suggested certainly seems possible. I've had stranger things thrown up on my tree before now.

If anyone still wants to have a search for me, all the details are on the first message, you never know, another pair of eyes and all that.......

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

You can do an address search, but it is quite long winded.

On your home page, click on the census you want to search. When the search box comes up, scroll down and you will see a list of counties, click on the one you want (be careful with London, it is listed in some census, in others you will need Middlesex).

Then click on the parish ( St Luke) ;then click on the sub-registration district. This brings up a list of the enumeration districts. You will have to click on each View description..... to see which streets are in it. When you find the one you want, click on the district No and then go through the images till you find the one you want.

I did this for 1891 and 1881 but could find nothing that looked relevant

Hi Joanne,

Previous entry crossed with yours.

1901 census ought to be possible from the National Archives site - they do have an address search.

- now tried it - seems to be Hull St St Lukes Finsbury on the 1901 - addresses for numbers 12 to 20 - but you need vouchers to check the details.


Family Records Centre, I believe, have London street indexes for earlier censuses - not sure whether they were also compiled for 1891 or 1901.

Hi

Just a theory - and lots to tell against it, but there is a couple of Caroline Spillers living in the same area (St Lukes) in 1871. They are mother and daughter. The daughter is only 8 then, but would have been 15 or 16 and a possible mother to John Robert by the time of his birth.

In 1881 she is still at home with her parents, age 18, and no sign of any infant son.

However, if she was his mother, it is possible that he could have been brought up by the older Caroline?

Against this - where is John in 1881? The older Caroline is still too young (shown as born in 1840).

Any other thoughts as to for and against this possibility?

Does anyone know if I can look up a particular street name on the 1891 and 1901 census (like you can on the 1881 census)?

John Robert Matthews mother is shown as living at 9 Hull Street on his service records in 1898, however, I have just found that the street is in fact Hulls Street. It is in the same district (St. Lukes) as John was born, so it doesn't look at though Caroline moved far.

Joanne.

Thanks Heather.

Yes, I did think that too. I've wondered if he could be on the census as something like Baker being a confectioner, but that doesn't bring up any results for me either.

Joanne.

Thanks so much.

I will go ahead and get the death certificate, as you say, it might give me at least something to go on.

Does anyone manage to research their tree without any complications?

John Robert Matthews is on my husband's side of the tree, on my own side I was stuck for months unable to find a birth record for my great grandfather. It turned out that he was born under a different surname to that which has carried on throughout the family!

I wondered if Caroline could have married or remarried after John was born, and that they are shown on the census's under her new husband's surname, but on the army records, she is still shown as Caroline Matthews. Aarrrgggg, it's driving me mad!

Joanne.

Have to say a "ginger beer maker" and a confectioner looks a pretty close fit to me.

Hi Joanne

This one is a real puzzle. I have even searched all the addresses (Gastigny Place and Hull St) on the 1881 and 1891 but can't find anything.

I wouldn't worry too much about the change of father's name. John may never have known his father or he might have died when he was young and could have been known as Fred in the family so he put down Frederick on his marriage cert (his mother being dead by that time).

As Caroline is given as next of kin on his Army record, I would think his father (if they were married) was dead by then.

I wonder if the family moved overseas?

I would get the death cert for the Caroline who died in 1899 - it might give some info, eg whether she was a widow, who registered the death or it might rule it out completly.

47 wasn't too old to have a child, although unusual but the age on the cert could be wrong - would depend on how well the person registering her death knew her.

I was just typing my reply as you replied, Potty.

Yes, it was his mother who registered the birth. She is shown as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers, and living at 4 Gastigny Place, St Lukes.

Joanne.

Thanks for your reply, Potty, both on here and by PM.

I'm still at a bit of a loss. I can't find anything which matches up with Caroline Spiller or Spillers or Matthews on the census's, nor can I find any trace of John Robert Matthews on the census's prior to 1901.

On the army records it states that his mother died 31/01/1899 and the death registration for Caroline Spiller was J/F/M 1899 in Kensington. The dates certainly stack up, but would she have had a baby at 47?

The other thing which is puzzling me is why John's father is listed as Henry on the birth certificate but Frederick on the marriage certificate.

The army records are fascinating. Yes, I bet Alice wasn't too pleased about the tattoo!!! His grandaughter (my mother in law) was called Margaret! I bet Alice wasn't happy with the choice of name her daughter called her daughter after what she had to look at on her husband's arm for all those years.

Hope you can give me a few more pointers on where I can be looking.

Thanks so much,
Joanne.

Joanne,

I cannot find anything for any of them before John's joining the army. Have searched every way I can think of.

Perhaps if you got the death cert for the Caroline who died in 1899 that may give more info.

Who registered the birth on John's cert? Was it his mother?

Joanne,

Received and replied to your PM before looking here. Glad you found the record. Makes very interesting reading, doesn't it? Wonder what Alice thought of the tattoo!

Not sure about the death you found or the one I found. Mine looks too young and yours looks a bit old. Will see what I can find for the Kensington one in the censuses.

Thank you so much for all your help. I've been jumping up and down all night after looking at the service records. This is definitely him!!!

I don't really know where to go from here.

I presume that the birth certificate which I hold is him then. Born 27/09/1878 at 4 Gastigny Place, St. Lukes, in the registration district of Holborn, sub-district of City Road, Middlesex.

The birth Certificate shows his father as Henry Matthews, Ginger Beer Maker, however, his marriage certificate shows his father as Frederick Matthews, Confectioner (deceased).

The birth certificate shows his mother as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers. The army records show his mother as dying in 1899. I have found a Caroline Spiller dying in 1899 in Kensington. This would fit if she didn't actually marry John Robert Matthews father. The birth record shows Caroline Spiller dying in 1899, born in 1831 which would mean that she was 47 when she had John. Do you think this stacks up?

Joanne.