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Nicola
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17 Nov 2007 23:29 |
I'm struggling to find my G-Grandfather Karl Hell's place of birth. From his death certificate he died at the age of 37 in 1914, making his DOB year abt 1877.He died in the German Hospital in Dalston, London. He married my G-Grandmother Charlotte Keetch in 1907, and it details his father's name as John Hell. They lived in Shoreditch/Stoke Newington. I can not seem to find him listed on any census and I am led to believe he came from Prussia, but not 100% on that but dont know where to begin looking for him!
Can anybody help find him please.
many thanks
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2007 04:14 |
How about this guy in 1901?
Name: Carl Halle Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: German Subject, Germany Civil Parish: Stoke Newington Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew County/Island: London Country: England Occupation: Commercial Clerk Registration district: Hackney Sub-registration district: Stoke Newington ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Household schedule number: 246
Elizabeth Armstrong 65 Carl Halle 22 Eliza Harley 26 Max Heingaertuer 32 Hermann Wolff 24
All but the landlady Elizabeth and servant Eliza were born in Germany. Many others on that census page were born abroad as well. Karl's father may well not have been in England at any time -- Karl could have been there for his employment, e.g.
There is also this fellow, whose surname is not really decipherable -- H-e-something:
Name: Carl Hey Age: 24 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: Russia R Subj Civil Parish: Shoreditch Ecclesiastical parish: St Leonard Shoreditch County/Island: London Country: England Occupation: Cabinetmaker Registration district: Shoreditch Sub-registration district: Shoreditch South ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Household schedule number: 40
Carl Hey 24 Adolf Speicher 2 Jesefa Speicher 22 Mary Speicher 6 months Rudolf Speicher 30 Antoine Stargwiki 40
If either of those occupations jibes with what's on his marriage certificate, you might be in luck.
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Nicola
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7 Dec 2007 21:31 |
Not sure if they are a match unless he changed his profession! According to the marriage cert Karl was a hair dresser. His father John, is listed as a boot maker. So not sure where to look again, has anyone got any ideas?
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Dec 2007 21:50 |
So, a hairdresser. Nothing else you aren't telling us??
It does just so help to know what one is looking for ...
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Dec 2007 22:04 |
It says "Heller", and he's a hairdresser:
Name: Carl Haller Age: 26 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: German, Germany Civil Parish: St Pancras Ecclesiastical parish: St Jude County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: St Pancras Sub-registration district: Gray's Inn Lane ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Household schedule number: 109
Getting warm??
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Nicola
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7 Dec 2007 22:23 |
thanks again for looking Kathryn, but I really dont have anything else to go by. I have his marriage cert and death cert. I have no living relatives that can tell me about him or where he came from, whether he had brothers or sisters. I was led to believe that he was German. He died in the German Hospital in Darlston, London.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Dec 2007 22:41 |
Well, I'd consider that Mr. Heller. Carl is an anglicization of Karl, and he may have used that spelling. He could have altered his surname, or errors could have been made.
He's German born, he's a hairdresser, he's within a year or two of the right age, and he lives in London.
(Just out of curiosity, I searched the 1881 census for hairdressers born in Germany, and there were 218, counting hairdressers' apprentices and the odd hairdresser's wife.)
I'm afraid you're stuck with an awfully common German name and no info about where he came from -- which is of course what you're looking for. Finding him in the 1901 with family would have been nice, but it's equally likely he wasn't in England at the time, and his father never was. His father was likely Johannes Hell, anglicized for Karl's marriage certificate.
If you ask at the Records Office or Tips board, you might find someone who knows something about German genealogy who could give you a boost!
First maybe just google "german genealogy" (in quotation marks like that) and check out what's available on line.
http://www.cyndislist.com/germany.htm
for starters!
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Nicola
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7 Dec 2007 23:23 |
Thanks I'll give it a go! My only other option is to wait for the 1911 Census!!!!
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Dec 2007 23:28 |
Here's one other thing I'd do.
Go to
http://www.freebmd.org.uk
and just search for all births, marriages and deaths for the surname Hell -- focusing on the later years, of course.
In reading through the results, you can probably spot the ones that are mistranscriptions of Hill. I have a Hill mystery of my own, and it was a while before I realized someone could actually mistranscribe a simple English surname like that. Several hundred times in the census databases.
Then, if you want to throw a bit of cash at the problem, you might order a certificate for someone like:
Marriages Jun 1893 Arpert Louis Friedrich P Shoreditch 1c 250 Atkinson Mary Theresa Shoreditch 1c 250 >>> Hell Emma Lina Shoreditch 1c 250 WALKER Edwin Shoreditch 1c 250
Right area ... could be an elder syster. If the father's name matches, you have a batch of potential cousins to track down.
Another one might be:
Marriages Sep 1908 FULLWOOD Millicent Agnes Strand 1b 1288 >>> HELL Anna Strand 1b 1288 KUNBERGER Augusta Strand 1b 1288 KUNBERGER Hedwig Augusta W Strand 1b 1288 MEYER Walter Strand 1b 1288 VON HRADECZKY Rudolf Strand 1b 1288
A birth that might be related:
Births Mar 1891 (died aged 3) Hell Victor Karl Stepney 1c 470
Are Lottie and Polina Teresa born in Hackney yours?
Actually, that one marriage was a remarriage:
Name: Emma Lina Katte + Friedrich Heinrich Hell Year of Registration: 1883 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: London City County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 1c Page: 97
In 1891 she is widowed and she and her sister (oops, cousin) Elizabeth Katte are shown as born in England:
F Behuendt 33 born in Germany Adelaide L Hell 5 Emma L Hell 25 Eva B Hell 3 Fred H Hell 1 Victor C Hell 9 weeks Elizabeth Kattle 15
Well now here's interesting. In 1881, Emma with her widowed mother:
Name: Adelaide Katte Age: 44 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Germany Civil Parish: St Botolph County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 15 John Street Condition as to marriage: Widower Occupation: ** Hairdresser ** Registration district: London City Sub-registration district: St Botolph ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Wilhelm Denkert 20 Adelbert Drieselman 28 Elizabeth Fordham 65 Adelaide Katte 44 Albert Katte 14 Betty Katte 17 Emma Katte 15 Henry Katte 19 Julius Katte 8 Frederick Kretzschman 26 Henry Wiseloh 19
Emma Lina Katte, whose mother was a hairdresser born in Germany, married Friedrich Heinrich Hell in 1883.
And wouldn't you know it: I check the 1891 image, and Emma is a hairdresser too. As is F. Behueudt(?) in her household.
A woman with German parents who is a hairdresser marries a man named Hell. I'd want to see what his occupation and father's name were on the marriage certificate!
Just some leads that might be dead ends, but might go somewhere.
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Nicola
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7 Dec 2007 23:58 |
Lottie and Polena Teresa are mine.They are Karl's daughter's. Lottie is my grandmother. Polena Teresa died in America aged 22 or 23 I believe in 1932. I dont know how she died, but have a letter dated Sept,1932 from the British Consulate General, New York stating Polena was interred in the city cemetery, Harts Island, New York. I dont know whether they tried to bring the body back to england or not. Again, I know very little about this family and my grandmother spoke very little about them whilst she was alive. I wrote to the cemetery that Karl is interred in to see if there was a head stone that may have helped, but he was buried in a common grave with no head stone. I will certainly have a look at what you have found and see if there are any possible siblings.
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