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Hi Kathryn
Thanks for all your help so far.
Today I have received the marriage cert of Lydia May Russell
and of Rosina Martha Russell.
Also the Marriage of Alfred Joseph Russell. These are all correct as far as I know.

I also applied for the Birth cert of Lydia may Russell that had father Alfred was in the right county but wife Carla. I followed it on through the Censuses and it dosent tie up.

I am also following the line of Alfreds brothers and sisters but as yet still no Carroline !!!!

I think that the year 1897 for Caroline could be wrong. This year was calculated from her wedding cert and from hearsay she was 3 when her mother died. The father died shortly after. If her age was wrong on her wed cert by three years or more she may have missed the 1901 census.????

Please have you any other Suggestions
Regards John

Ok then off to a good start !!!!
We have a birth 1890
We have Lydia in 1891 census age 2
We have Lydia in 1901 census age 15

(dates are a bit squiffy) ???

We have Lydia in marriages 1908 and
her middle name (May)

We also have the marriage of her father or uncle 1886 to Lydia Gregory.

That all sounds promising to me.

Rose we have in 1891 census.
Rose we have in 1901 census.
Her birth looks good for 1890 Stepney

and she's named Rosina !!!!!

I am going to get the Birth Certs as soon as I can for both of these and marrige certs if they look ok.

My mother insists neither of these were the mother of Caroline.

Your theory the (Dumbletons) is so interesting as to the closeness of all entries.
Im looking at it but keeping an open mind on it at the moment.

I will pass all findings on to be viewed by sis she has done quite a bit on the family
but never got far with Caroline and family.
Again Caroline and brothers still missing but this is coming together.

Thanks so much for your help.

This looks like Alfred John's marriage:


Name: Alfred John Dumbleton
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Southwark(1901 Onw)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1d
Page: 21


It sure would be interesting to see whether he was an undertaker -- and maybe Caroline was actually his daughter, and the niece of Lydia and Rose ...


Aargh. Here they are in 1881 -- sans son Ernest:


Name: Alfred Dumbleton
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edwin S.
Mother's Name: Sarah J.
Gender: Male
Where born: Newington, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 166 Lynton Rd
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: St James Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 26b

Alfred Dumbleton 2
Edwin S. Dumbleton 28 - warehouseman unemployed
Sarah J. Dumbleton 28 - beader on leather


Name: Edwin Samuel Dumbleton + Sarah Jane Caunter
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 180


Not finding any connection between the families ... and it's supper time! But that's my theory. ;)

But here is an extremely interesting coincidence:


Name: Lydia May Dumbleton
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 23


Name: Rosina Maria Dumbleton
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: St Olave Southwark (1837-1901)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 316


Lydia May and Rosina M, born in the right place at vaguely the right time. (Rosina being way out from the 1891 entry, but who knows?)

I don't see either of those names in the 1891 or 1901 census, or marrying 1900-1910 or dying anytime.


I see an interesting Dumbleton household in 1891:


Name: Alfred J Dumbleton
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Ernest S
Gender: Male
Where born: Walworth, London, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Peckham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 2

Alfred J Dumbleton 12
Ernest H Dumbleton 15
Ernest S Dumbleton 38 - polisher's assistant - widowed


He's Alfred John Dumbleton in the 1901 census, and was born:

Name: Alfred John Dumbleton
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 170


-- but I'm damned if I can find those people in the 1881. Or father Ernest in any other census, or being born or marrying or dying.

But this could be the death of his wife:


Name: Sarah Jane Dumbleton
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 37
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 21


Might the widowed Ernest Dumbleton have placed his young daughters with the Russells??

And this is Lydia's marriage:


Marriages Jun 1908
Bellamy Frederick Charles Greenwich 1d 1777
** HUGHES William Henry Greenwich 1d 1777
Robinson Ada Mary Greenwich 1d 1777
** Russell Lydia May Greenwich 1d 1777


So she's Lydia May ... and there's only one of them:


Name: Lydia May Russell
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Olave Southwark (1837-1901)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 275


but that sure didn't make her 2 in 1891, let alone 15 in 1901 ...

Would this be Rose's marriage?


Marriages Dec 1913
Facey Clements W Marriner Camberwell 1d 1523
Marriner Annie L Facey Camberwell 1d 1523
** Russell Rosina M Smith Camberwell 1d 1523
** Smith Walter T Russell Camberwell 1d 1523


So she was Rosina.

This is the only one of them who could have been 3 mo old in the 1891:


Name: Rosina Russell
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Stepney (To 1921)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 427

Could this be the birth of Rosey, who was 3 months old in the 1891?


Name: Rosy Russell
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 54

Just wanted to mention that the Gladys Lydia birth I'd noted wasn't your Lydia; that Gladys Lydia is in the 1901 census being a different person.

Your Lydia was 15 in 1901. What's the chance that she was Caroline's mother?

Where's Rose in 1901? I can't identify her.

Maybe Lydia is this one? --

Name: Lydia Ann Russell
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 720

Rose, dunno.

Yes, you silly -- I copied that marriage way back on page one. ;)

But if Caroline was born before 1901, where is she in 1901??

Alfred could have been Carolines father
or her uncle ???

Marriages Mar 1886 (97%)
>>>>Gregory Lydia st saviour 1d150
Hunt Albert Edward st Saviour 1d 150
Montague Louisa Frances st Saviour 1d
>>>>Russell Alfred St Saviour 1d 150

Yes indeed! A young Alfred who matches the one in 1901 etc., and has a mother Caroline. I should have pursued that, er, "-line" of enquiry a little further. ;)

Now if you can just figger out what his connection with Caroline the younger is ...!

Hi Kathryn
The 1901 and the 1881 census we think ties up well especially being a sawdust contractor.
The death cert for Alfred also good.
On more searching at the weekend we have come across this

Name: Charles Russell
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St George The Martyr Southwark
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England




Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred Russell 7
Caroline Russell 40
Charles Russell 42
Elizabeth Russell 4
Henry Russell 9
James Russell 16
Louisa Russell 2
Sarah Russell 13
William Russell 16

This the Young Alfred Russell with parents and a caroline but not the Caroline.

Looking through the others to check out.

Thanks for your help.

John

Just to give you a clearer picture....
Caroline was my grandmother on my mothers side. My mother Doris being an only child. Mum knew Lydia and Rose.
Lydia married a William ? Hughes had children Reg, Richard, Violet, and Lilian +
and died in 1946.
Rose married a walter Smith had children Rose ??? Thats about it I think
Thanks again for all this assistance.

Just one question, John -- you're absolutely certain that Lydia and Rose are part of your family?? I'm assuming you or your parents actually knew them. ;)

If you come up with more info, or comments on any of this, just post it here -- the thread will pop up to the top of the list for me in "my threads", which makes it a lot easier to find than if you PM me and I have to go looking for the thread!

As for how to find it so quickly, you have to have a mind that works like a search engine. ;) And a search engine to work it on.

You gave a bunch of pieces of data -- the names Lydia and Rose especially, fortunately less common than Mary and Sarah. Search for one of them in the census database (I use Ancestry), with a guestimated age (I guessed young at first: 1890 to 1900), and find the two names together as sisters in a household, and you're probably onto something.

And just keep testing theories! That Caroline born in Wandworth looked like a good candidate, but when I searched for her in 1901, I found her with parents that didn't match any of your info. So she probably had to be ruled out.

And you watch for clues. That unmarried Mary Russell who might be your Caroline's mother had a mother named Caroline. Coincidence, or naming pattern?

I think we've found all the right people -- the question is: what is the connection between the two groups?

Alfred and Mary don't seem to have been siblings, so Lydia and Rose don't seem to have been Caroline's cousins. But it looks as if, at some point, Alfred took Caroline in, and she then stayed with Lydia and Rose.

It is possible that Alfred was really called Joseph, his middle name. People were often called by middle names, but sometimes put their formal first names on censuses.

... I've just looked at the images for a few Joseph Russells of the right age in the right vicinity to see whether there were any undertakers. No luck so far ... but I may have a look at the one whom Ancestry has transcribed as ... hold onto your hat ... a Copulation Officer. (He was a fireman, and a ditto to what may be "corporation officer".) No undertakers that I'm seeing.

So anyhow, get back once you and your sister have mulled it over and we'll see!

Thank you so very much for your help Kathryn.
All this information I dont know how you found it so quickly.
Still trying to get my head around it and Im sure lots of it fits. I am sending it to my sister to view. I will let you know how we get on once we have mulled it over more. Thanks so very much.
John

In case anybody's wondering -- John did PM me with the info in his second post up there, which I suggested he put in the thread for any helpers who happened by. I wasn't really just desperately seeking diversion from work. ;)

And for a completely different theory -- was Caroline *older* than you thought?


In 1901:


Name: Caroline Russell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary A
Gender: Female
Where born: Walworth, London, England

Civil Parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter, Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Household schedule number: 227

Francis Davies 31 - boarder, fruit hawker
James Linton 13
Alfred Russell 4
Caroline Russell 8
Charlotte Russell 10
Henry Russell 13
James Russell 7
Mary A Russell 36 -- married (no husband present), flower seller


I'm not having any luck with them in 1891. Children Charlotte and Henry seem to be fostered out, and I can't identify Mary.

This looks like that Mary in 1881:


Name: Mary Russell
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 19 Montesquieu St
Occupation: Jute Spinner
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: West Ham


She's unmarried. And on the same page, we have a batch of other Russells: ... except they've been omitted from the transcription of the page by Ancestry ... three children whose parents ought to be on the preceding page, but the preceding page is a Clark household with Harris children.

Oh great. Ancestry has the page images out of order. The Russells are on page 11, the "preceding" page is page 12. Looking at page 10 ...

Charles and Mary Russell and 5 children, one of whom is a Charlotte.


Well this is an odd one. We have a household that matches all your details -- Alfred Russell, sawdust dealer, with children Lydia and Rose. And we have a Caroline who matches your details not badly -- born 1893 in Wandworth, with apparently unmarried mother Mary.


How about another theory? Caroline was the niece, not the daughter, of Alfred Russell.

I would bet that this is Mary in 1871 -- mother Caroline:


Name: Mary Ann Russell
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Caroline
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charterhouse
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household schedule number: 55

Caroline Russell 27
Edward Russell 3
Ellen Russell 1
George Russell 35
Mary Ann Russell 5


No Alfred, though.

Here's what looks like Alfred in 1871:


Name: Alfred Russell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Eliza M
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford
Ecclesiastical parish: Hatcham St James
Town: Deptford
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Household schedule number: 32

Sarah Eacott 20
Alfred Russell 8
Anne M Russell 10
Edith A Russell 12
Eliza M Russell 45
Ellen Russell 14


No apparent connection.


I think I'm going to leave you to mull this over!

Which still leaves us with the question -- if those people are Caroline's family -- where is Caroline in 1901??


This looks like it's probably the Caroline born in Cambwell in 1896, in the 1901:


Name: Caroline Russell
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thos
Mother's Name: Victoria
Gender: Female
Where born: Camberwell, London, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
County/Island: London
Country: England

That Russell household was in Southwark in 1901, and that Alfred Joseph died in Camberwell.

Might this be Caroline?


Name: Caroline Sarah Russell
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Camberwell (1837-1919)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 950


Could be the parents marriage:


Marriages Mar 1886
**GREGORY Lydia St. Saviour 1d 150
Hunt Albert Edward St Saviour 1d 150
MONTAGUE Louisa Frances St. Saviour 1d 150
**RUSSELL Alfred St. Saviour 1d 150


Lydia Russell in the 1891/1901 was born in Crowydon c1869. In the 1881 there's a Lydia Gregory in Newington born c1868 in Bow. In the 1891, Lydia Jr.'s and Rosey's birthplace is reported as Newington.

This could be Lydia ...


Name: Gladys Lydia V Russell
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 661


Here's a Rose:


Name: Rose Russell
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 718


but that would be a very late registration for a chlid who was 3 months in the 1891 census.