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John Thomas with parents Thomas and Lydia does not seem to me to be the same person as John Joshua, with parents Thomas and Elizabeth

I appreciate that Thomas could have had more than one wife....however, as there are baptism records for both Johns, one must assume they were different people.

John Thomas's baptism fits with the age recorded on the 1841 and 1851 census......John Joshua was apparently a year or more younger........

Reg

1881.........John is a Labourer

Name: John Joshua Norris
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Bishopgate

Civil Parish: St Leonard
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 10 Goldsmith Sqre.
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Labourer

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerston
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Glover 15
Charles Norris 23
John Norris 4
John Joshua Norris 52
Mary Ann Norris 51
Samuel Norris 21

Reg

Thank you for you help Reg kind regards Ann x.

IGI.............

JOHN JOSHUA NORRIS
Male


Christening: 02 NOV 1828 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London, London, England


Parents:
Father: THOMAS NORRIS
Mother: ELIZABETH



Full Batch info............

Norris, British Isles
Father: Thomas , Mother: Elizabeth
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: C001618

1. JOHN JOSHUA NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 NOV 1828 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London, London, England

2. THOMAS GREEVES NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 NOV 1828 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London, London, England

3. SARAH SCOTMAN NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 02 NOV 1828 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London, London, England

Reg

Possibly the brother?

Name: Thomas Greaves Norris
Year of Registration: 1844
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Hackney
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 3
Page: 142

Eight names on the page.........!!

Reg

Reg you are very kind for finding that out for me thank you kind regards Ann.

1871 census..........

Name: Charles Norris
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John J
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Haggerstone
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerston East
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 32
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Norris 13
John J Norris 44
John J Norris 18
Mary Ann Norris 41
Samuel Norris 11


AND 1861

Name: Charles Norris
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Shoreditch St Leonard
Ecclesiastical parish: Haggerston St Mary
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England


Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerstone East
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 60
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Norris 3
John Norris 35
John Norris 8
Mary Norris 32
Samuel Norris 1

The son John Joshua married in 1877..........

Reg

REG every thing you said on the last message is what i know to be right, you are so helpful, Tell me Reg [ Thats if you do not mind] why do the brother and sister have middle names like surnames?
Still waiting for m/c for John Joshua Norris and Mary Ann, will get back to you as soon as it comes. kind regards Ann.

These middle names can be mother's surnames, grandmother's surnames, step-parent's surnames, even sometimes influential friend's surnames.

However they are often helpful in making connections.

Also they can then go down through the generations.
For example:
THOMAS GREEVES NORRIS - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 17 DEC 1825

Births Sep 1850
Norris Thomas Greeves Bethnal Gr 2 56


Ozi.

I've been reading all your threads about John Joshua Norris that you've posted over the past week or so. It seems to me that you're just going around in circles & doing your head in. Getting John Joshua's marriage cert is going to be a big leap forward.


But here's something to be thinking about in the meantime. In 1841 there are 2 Norrises that I can find beavering away on cabinets in Bethnal Green. Though as yet you have nothing that tells you John Joshua's father was a cabinet maker, but it is a coincidence so I bet you'll find they're related. They may be a cousin, brother, uncle, etc.

First the older one.
1841:
Name: George Norris
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England


Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: Nelson Street

Occupation: cabinet maker [Very, very faint so difficult to read.]

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Norris 40
George Norris 20
George Norris 20
Thomas Norris 20 - cabinet maker
William Norris 15
Joseph Norris 14
Benjamin Norris 12
Elizabeth Norris 9

IGI Individual Record
GEORGE NORRIS
Marriages:
Spouse: RACHEL WIND
Marriage: 02 OCT 1820 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London, England
Source Information:
Batch No.: M020692 Dates: 1733 - 1754, 1813 - 1824, 1824 - 1837


Father: George Norris, Mother: Rachel
1. GEORGE NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 08 JUN 1819
Christening: 27 JUN 1819 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

2. THOMAS NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 20 APR 1821
Christening: 13 MAY 1821 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

3. WILLIAM NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 11 FEB 1824
Christening: 14 MAR 1824 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

4. JOSEPH NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 26 AUG 1826
Christening: 01 OCT 1826 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

5. BENJAMIN NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 12 NOV 1828
Christening: 25 DEC 1828 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

6. SARAH ELIZABETH NORRIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 21 NOV 1832 Christening: 25 DEC 1832 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England


Then the younger one. Is this George's son recorded twice, once at his place of work & again at home? It does happen.
First the young one.
1841:
Name: Thomas Norris
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: Cheshire Street

Occupation: cabinet maker's app.

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Norris 16

There's a James Benny, cabinet maker also in the household but he's not the head. They seem to be lodging/boarding with a Plate family.



Following on.
1851:
Name: George Norris
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Frances
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 45 New Nichol St

Occupation: cabinet maker master

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Hackney Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 94
Household Members: Name Age
George Norris 55
Frances Norris 50 - Bethnal Green
Sarah Norris 18 - Trimming weaveress
Sarah Cannell 18 - Trimming weaveress
Mary Cannell 15 - Trimming weaveress
George Cannell 12 - scholar
Thomas Fletcher 26 - visitor


Marriages Dec 1842
BYRNE Mary St Lukes 2 264
...>>>CANNELL Frances St Luke's 2 264
DONOGHUE Daniel St Lukes 2 264
FISHER William St Lukes 2 264
HEDGER Ellen St Luke's 2 264
HOWSE Sarah Sophia St Lukes 2 264
...>>>NORRIS George St Lukes 2 264
SMITH Henry Edmond St Lukes 2 264

Don't worry about the deletions. That's me going down dead ends to connect John Joshua c1827 to his parents.

Ozi.

In 1851, it looks like George's son, Joseph, has taken up the trade. He has children called George & Rachel.

1851:
Name: Joseph Norris
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 5 Peter St

Occupation: cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 107
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Norris 24
Jane Norris 25 - Bethnal Green
Sarah Norris 2 - Mile End
Joseph Norris 1 - Shoreditch


1861:
Name: Joseph Norris
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 25 Nelson St

Occupation: cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Norris 34
Jane Norris 35
Sarah Norris 12
Joseph Norris 10
George Norris 9
Rachael Norris 7
Jane Norris 6
William Norris 4

Also his son, Benjamin.

1851:
Name: Benjamin Morris
[Benjamin Norris]
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Esther
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 16 Wellington Row

Occupation: Cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Hackney Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 24
Household Members: Name Age
Benjamin Morris 22
Esther Morris 22 - fancy trimming weaver
Samuel Morris 4 Mo
All born Bethnal Green

Perhaps son William too.
1851:
Name: William Norris
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Frances
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 6 Trafalgar St

Occupation: jyr cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Hackney Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 129
Household Members: Name Age
William Norris 27
Frances Norris 25 - Trimming weaveress, Spitalfields
William B Norris 3 - B.G.
George Norris 7 Mo - B.G.


I bet this is them!!
Marriages Mar 1846
Butt Amelia Shoreditch 2 343
...>>>Cannell Fanny Frances Shoreditch 2 343
Clark William Henry Shoreditch 2 343
Ellisdon Christian Ann Benwell Shoreditch 2 343
Ellisdon Christian Ann Powell Shoreditch 2 343
Greenhow George Shoreditch 2 343
Norrington William Shoreditch 2 343
...>>>NORRIS William Shoreditch 2 343
TAYLOR Mary Sophia Shoreditch 2 343
Vallance Thomas Henry Shoreditch 2

Then these 2 pop out of the wood work [excuse the pun!]

1851:
Name: Charles T Norris
Age: 64
Estimated birth year: abt 1787
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 11 Squirries St

Occupation: cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members: Name Age
Charles T Norris 64
Catherine Norris 60 - Bethnal Green
William Norris 30 - cabinet maker, Bethnal Green



1851:
Name: Thomas Norris
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1791
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Norton Folgate, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 15 Robert St

Occupation: cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 223
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Norris 60
Elizabeth Norris 43 - b. Liverpool [You've got to wonder if this is a 2nd wife.]
Harriet Norris 17 - b. Shoreditch
Mary Ann Norris 9 - scholar
Louisa Norris 7 - scholar
Emma Norris 5 - scholar
Caroline Norris 15 Mo
Amelia Norris 15 Mo
5 younger children born Bethnal Green.

These 2 are at 10 Robert St. I bet they belong to Thomas above.
1851:
Name: William Norris
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 10 Robert St.

Occupation: confectioner


Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 203
Household Members: Name Age
William Norris 22
James Norris 19 - brother, shoemaker, B.G.


1861:
Name: Thomas Norris
Age: 72
Estimated birth year: abt 1789
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Bishopsgate

Civil parish: Bethnal Green St Matthew
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 15 Robert St

Occupation: cabinet maker

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 351
Household Members: Name Age

Thomas Norris 72
Elizabeth Norris 53 - b. Liverpool
Mary Ann Norris 19 - boot binder
Louisa Norris 15 - boot binder
Emma Norris 14 - boot binder
Caroline Norris 11 - scholar
Amelia Norris 11 - scholar
All children born Bethnal Green.
Caroline has been written before Amelia both times now so I should say she is the elder twin.

THANK YOU Ozibird, that was really interesting, Oribird i am still waiting for John Joshua Norris M/C when that comes i am sure all this will fall into place.
Thank you again for your time and interest in my Thread you are all very helpful people [what would we do without you lot!] kind regards Ann x.

Hi Everyone, well it's finally come John Joshua Norris born 1827 M/C so here go's

John Joshua Norris age full Cabinet Maker

Living at 11 Essex Street, Bethnal Green,

Father Thomas Norris Cabinet Maker.

Mary Ann Cradddock age full Bethnal Green

Living 15 George {and i think it say}Gardens,

Father Thomas Craddock Silk Spinner.

If any one can help with this i would be so grateful, it's Thomas who i want to know about and his wife, thanks to every one who's helped me on this before. very kind regards Ann.
Also i am so very sorry i cannot stay on threads at the moment so i shall say thank you now for any help. I will be back later on threads, thank you again Ann.

Thank you for replying Julie it's all becoming more of a who's who. kind regards Ann.

Ok Julie thank you kind regards Ann. x

Ann - take great care. As you know I've done quite a bit of research on this family just because I became intrigued with your thread.

The hawker/costermonger family is NOT yours. You can follow them all the way through the censuses. They are always hawkers.

Anyway, 1891 is what YOU started with & they are definitely cabinet makers on that!

1891:
Name: Joshua J Norris
Age: 64
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Relation: Grandfather, Grandpa (Grandfather)
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England

Civil parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Columb
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 119 Kingsland Rd

Occupation: cabinet maker

Condition as to marriage: married

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerston
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John J Norris 39 - cabinet maker
Harriet Norris 36
John J Norris 14
James Norris 13
Charles Norris 10
George Norris 8/12
Joshua J Norris 64

Ozi.