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You're welcome Selena, and it's nice to be appreciated. It's good when it turns out ok in the end.

Christine

Dear K and Christine, thanks both for all your help and time spent on this.

I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner but am juggling work, kids (doing their homework on PC) and husband on nights at present.

Many thanks once again,

Selena

Pleased that we made it in the end, but you found the main details.

Christine

Christine

I have send Selana the Army Enlistments for Robert W and the census images including 1901 . Thanks for finding it as I think it confirms the links

K

I hadn't looked at the image for 1901 as they were very slow loading, just shows it pays to check and then I would have realised he was in the army barracks.

I have the 1901 saved if you want it Selena, pm me your email address, but have noticed that Kay said she will explain.

Christine

I will sent you everything and explain tonight

K

K and Christine,

Thanks so much for this. Just off to send an email letting my friend know.

I can't see the 1901 as a Colour Sgt, it is with Elizth and the children below:
Annie Whittle 9
Eleanor B Whittle 5
Elizth Whittle 40
John Whittle 10
Robt Peter Whittle 14
Robt Wm Whittle 37
Thomas Whittle 12
Walter Whittle

Were these children born in Ireland? Getting a little bit confused.

Do we think Robert William's parents were Thomas and Margaret?

Does it give Robert's wifes name on the ancestry war details?

Sorry to be a nuisance, trying to get my head round the various Roberts.

My friend will be so pleased,

Selena

Hi Christine

I should have seen the record before! I must admit I haven't seen one before and thought it was a death record!
Thanks for finding him in 1901 as a Colour Sgt in the East Lancs which ties it all in. I wonder when he found time for children? I have just realised that all the children were born in Ireland. No wonder they weren't around in 1891

K

I would hope this was Robert William and his father and family in 1871 who I think are the same as the 1881 records above, but the only way to confirm would be with the 1863 birth cert

1871

Name: Robert Wm Whittle
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Grandson
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 135
Household Members: Name Age
Bridget Cavnagh 50 Lodger
William Cavnagh 60 Lodger
Christopher Hampson 47
Anne Mangham 28 Lodger
Betsey Mangham 7 Lodger
Ann Mc Gee 50 Wife b Dublin
Francis Jas Mc Gee 19 Son of Head Plumber b Blackburn
Martin Mc Gee 50 Head - Mason b Wicklow Ireland
Ann Sopham 28 Visitor
John Sopham 26 Visitor
Francis Whittle 5 Brother of Robert W
Margaret Whittle 25 Daughter of head b Ireland, Dublin Mother RW
Peter Whittle 2 Brother of RW
Robert Wm Whittle 7
Thomas Whittle 27 b Blackburn Cotton Weaver father RW


1861

Name: Thomas Whittle
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 118
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Holdgrave 28 Daughter unmarried
Paul Whaterhouse 16 Lodger
Elizabeth Whittle 48 b Blackburn
Ellen Whittle 22
Robert Whittle 49 Block Printer b Preston
Thomas Whittle 19

Well done Kay, Selena will be pleased. He obviously did knock some years off his age on his 2nd marriage didn't he.

Christine

Eureka!!!

There is also a war record on Ancestry of a Robert William Whittle for Blackburn - It is dated 11th September 1914 and he is listed as Robert William Whittle aged 51 reservist and this was the date he enlisted. He was a publican at the Cross Guns Hotel, Church, Lancs. He is listed as married and previous army service is listed as QMS 22 years in the East Lancs Reg and 6 3/4 years in LRG Artillery Blackburn as a corporal. He was a soldier from 1883 no wonder he was difficult to find.

I can email you a copy if you send me a personal message with your address

Kayx

Christine and K, many thanks for you continue help.

I will recommend that my friend purchase the 1863 birth certificate and take it from there.

I will let you know the outcome on the thread,

Thanks again,
Selena

I think this is the same one in 1901.

1901 England Census
about Robt Wm Whittle
Name: Robt Wm Whittle
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizth
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Burnley
Ecclesiastical parish: Habergham Eaves Holy Trinity
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Burnley
Sub-registration district: West Ward
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Household Members: Name Age
Annie Whittle 9
Eleanor B Whittle 5
Elizth Whittle 40
John Whittle 10
Robt Peter Whittle 14
Robt Wm Whittle 37
Thomas Whittle 12
Walter Whittle 3


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3871; Folio: 151; Page: 31.

Christine

Hi Selena

I don't think unfortuantely the witnesses help much, but confirmation of the middle name is useful. I appreciate Robert was possibly born about 1869 based on his marriage cert but my grandmother knocked over 5 years of her age each time she married. (Luckily only twice)

The birth below is the only one I could find for a Robert Willam in the entire FreeBMD site (which I listed before) and this also a potential marraige in Blackburn. he could have adopted the middle name after his birth was registered however.

I found the couple on the 1881 census and they are living with Robert's father who was Thomas although he worked in the cotton trade. I will check them in other census years tonight when at home. I am not saying it's him but it is certainly worth looking into further

Will check tonight Kx

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1863 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHITTLE Robert William Blackburn 8e 316


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1880 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mason William Blackburn 8e 660
Whipp Rose Blackburn 8e 660
Whittle Robert William Blackburn 8e 660
Wrench Elizabeth Blackburn 8e 660


1881
Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Robert WHITTLE Head M Male 20 Blackburn, Lancashire, England Insurance Agent
Elizabeth WHITTLE Wife M Female 22 Manchester, Lancashire, England Cotton Winder
Thomas WHITTLE Father M Male 38 Preston, Lancashire, England Cotton Weaver
John Thos. WARD Lodger U Male 21 Wisbeach, Cambridge, England Insurance Agent

Got a reply and the witnesses were James Topping and Simeon Greenwood.

Selena

I'm still fumbling in the dark here.

Can anyone suggest anything I can do next, what certificate etc I could order?

Any suggestions gratefully received,

Selena

Found out that Robert's middile name was William. Will try to get some more info tomorrow and try again tomorrow evening,

Selena

Christine, thanks so much for that. I am still waiting to hear back from my elderly friends daughter about the witnessess on the cert but it might not be until Monday :(

I am still trying to think this through, I really thought that Robert with dad Thomas (Engine) was the right family, also because he was born in Liverpool, as was our Robert. But it looks like that Robert died.

Robert's wife on the 1921 marriage was Kate.

I really don't know where to go next, or even what certificates I could suggest that my friend could order.

I will go back and get the other 1881 I found but had previously ruled out, Robert was something do to do with Tavern Waiter (pubs??).

Any thoughts or advice would be very helpful and appreciated,

Selena

Hi Selena,

Have found 2 more which may be possible,
1871 father Thomas but a gardener, mother Isabella then 1901 Married and a daughter named Isabella.

about Robert Whittle
Name: Robert Whittle
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Isabella
Gender: Male
Where born: Knotty Ash, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: West Derby
Town: Knotty Ash
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 66
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 147
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Shaw 10
Isabella Whittle 29
Robert Whittle 1
Thomas Whittle 31



Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3850; Folio: 143; Page: 33; GSU roll: 841929.

1901 England Census
about Robert Whittle
Name: Robert Whittle
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary E
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: West Derby St Mary the Virgin
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Brick sellers labourer

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 205
Household Members: Name Age
Isabella Whittle 1
Mary E Whittle 30
Robert Whittle 31


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3502; Folio: 54; Page: 35.

Christine

Selena

Thanks for the further information. If Robert middle name is W - maybe William it puts a new possiblity on looking for a birth. I must admit the only one I can see of approximately the right age is listed below.

I really think Thomas and Rebecca's Robert died as he doesn't appear in later censuses

Christine is right really that we are guessing. I will keep looking - you never know.

Re Frank Whittle and his father Moses - I can't see a connection. I think the below in 1901 would be Moses but his father is also a Moses

Kay

Births Jun 1863 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHITTLE Robert William Blackburn 8e 316

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1901

Moses Whittle
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Moses
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Bolton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Mechanic Apprentice

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Little Bolton
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 264
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Whittle 5
Ann Elizabeth Whittle 23
Catherine Whittle 47
Catherine Whittle 14
Ellen Whittle 9
George A Whittle 10
Jane Whittle 20
Margaret Whittle 21
Moses Whittle 46 Power Loam Overlooker
Moses Whittle 18
Thomas H Whittle 16