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hi ...i have recived my gt grandfathers marraige certificate it states that james wilde married a sarah ann cholmondely in ellesmere 23rd sep 1887 he 21 and she 18.. but my grandfathers birth cert states her name is sarah chomandley??? it also states her father is a matthew edwards???all the men are canal boatmen.. i have looked on igi free bmd and ancestory and can still find nothing.. could some one give me some advice or tell me what im doing wrong? thanks x

Hi Bumble Bee

You remember that information written on any certificate is what the scriber hears at the time, he or she can mishear and spell incorrectly ( like me). I have seen this myself when a name Job was recorded Joe.

Concerning the conflict between mother's and father's surname, It could be that Matthew is her second husband.?

hi barry
thanks i thought that but i still cant find anything on her.... thanks for your reply...
happy new year xxxx

Hi Bumble Bee,

Just in case you don't know, but the name Cholmondeley is actually pronounced Chumley (oh the vagaries of the English Language). This may not be of any use, but I thought I would mention it.
Happy New Year.

hi ya
thanks for that. ....but as to date i have three different variations chomandley.... cholmondely and chomondley...and i just cant find any of them....
happy new year x

We have done this one so many times before ...

http://genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=980658

http://genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=984341

As I said in that second thread:

------------------------------------------

Alrighty. Here is Sarah Cholmondley in 1871:

Name: Sarah Cholmoudley -- Orphan
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Gender: Female
Where born: Whpton, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Alpraham
Ecclesiastical parish: Bunbury
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Registration district: Nantwich
Sub-registration district: Bunbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 113

In Alpraham. The same place she and James Wilde are living in 1901. Ancestry has screwed up the household listing. She is living on a lock boat -- and James and his father were canal boatmen. Her household is:

Name: William Harris -- Master Boatman
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Gender: Male
Where born: Habington, Buckinghamshire, England

Name: Sarah Harris (presumably wife)
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Gender: Female
Where born: Bildis, Buckinghamshire, England

Name: Elizabeth Price -- Assistant
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Gender: Female
Where born: Whpton (it's Shipton), Buckinghamshire, England

There is no information about their relationships.

----------------------------------------

I did allude to "Chumley" at that time; maybe you didn't understand that I was talking about the pronunciation.


You have simply got to accept that there were no computers at the time, many people were completely illiterate, and almost as many were born "illegitimate". All of those factors mean that you are not likely going to find even two perfectly matching records for the same person over a period of years.

The Sarah Cholm* whom I found in 1871 was born abt 1864, so may not be yours. The location and connection with the boats certainly match up. And people have been known to tell less than the truth about their ages when they married, especially if they were women older than their husbands. (My gr-grfather's sister threw me off for two years because she lied about her age when she married, apparently for just that reason.)


These look like the only possibilities for your Sarah's birth -- found by searching at FreeBMD for:

births anytime, anywhere
surname: cholm*
given name: sarah


Sarah Cholmley 1871 Oct-Nov-Dec Barnsley Yorkshire - West Riding

Sarah Jane Cholmondley 1868 Jul-Aug-Sep Wolverhampton Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands

Sarah Ann Cholmondley 1864 Jan-Feb-Mar Wolverhampton Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands

Sarah Jane Cholmondley 1864 Jan-Feb-Mar Wolverhampton Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands


If you wanted to gamble, you might order the 1868 certificate and see whether a father is named.

The name, however -- Sarah *Ann* -- matches the 1864 Sarah, who is likely the one whom I identified in the 1871 census.

hi kathryn
thanks ever so much for your help i do appreciate it.. and i have took in every thing you said that is why i got the marraige cert..to see what name that gave me...but when that arrived it threw me because it had 1869 as birth and father matthew harris and it was not the same as you had found for me.. i have now ordered a certificate with the details from the marraige certificate.. thanks again for all your help..sorry took so long to reply baby been back in hospital x

hi sorry fathers name was matthew edwards and not matthew harris as i had put in last message x

It is odd that Sarah Cholmondley's father would be stated as Mathew Edwards on her marriage certificate.

What certificate have you ordered? If you ordered Sarah Ann Cholmondley 1864 and specified father Matthew Edwards, and the father isn't Mathew Edwards -- that could still be her, and you won't know what it does say if that wasn't the father recorded! It's quite unlikely that her father's name would be on her birth certificate, if her parents were not married and she was registered under her mother's surname.


You poor soul. I forget whether I did this before -- but I checked the original image for Q3 1887, and there is Sarah Cholmondely's marriage, plain as day:

Ellesmere, vol 6a, page 1200.

FreeBMD has apparently just missed that page altogether -- there are no Cho* marriages for Q3 1887 in its database. (Its current coverage chart shows all but a fraction of a percentage of 1887 completed. Maybe your page is that fraction.)

That spelling variation -- -dely rather than -dley -- is just one of those things. It could even be because someone misread a handwritten "le" as "el".


Anyhow, I'm just not clear on this.

Her name is given as Sarah Ann Cholmondely.
Her father's name is given as Mathew Edwards.

No indication that she was previously married?



There's no Sarah Edwards in 1871 with father Mathhew ... but I wonder ... if her mother had married Edwards at some point and/or was using his surname ...


Name: Sarah Edwards
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Name: Ellen Edwards - says "Married"
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Mould, Flintshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn
ED, institution, or vessel: Union Workhouse

Ellen Edwards 34
Sarah Edwards 2
Thos Edwc Edwards 5 months

hi katheryn
i hve looked for a matthew edwards and i found one... who married a lucy chomondley.. in nantwhich in 1883 seems to much of a coincidece not to be them.. what do you think??
thanks again for your help xx

iv just found that!!! on free bmd... i still think im using that site wrong.... x

Here's a Mathew Edwards in 1861:


Name: Mathew Edwards
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 39

Harriet Edwards 44
Mathew Edwards 24
Sarah Lindley 59


who is in a workhouse in 1881:


Name: Matthew Edwards
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: "Salford Union Workhouse" Eccles New Rd Salford
Occupation: Cotton Spinner (C M)

Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: Salford Union Workhouse 2


This could be the Thomas Edwards, son of Ellen, who was 5 months old in 1871, in 1881:


Name: Thomas Edwards
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Edgeworth
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: Childrens Home
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Edgeworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 2

Now, remember that the Sarah I found in 1871 in Alpraham, Cheshire was described as an orphan:


Name: Sarah Cholmoudley -- Orphan
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Gender: Female
Where born: Shipton, Buckinghamshire, England


- I would not trust that place of birth, since the people she was living with were born in Buckinghamshire

- the place where they were in the census -- Cheshire -- is not particularly meaningful, since they lived on a lock boat.

- Alpraham was where James Wilde and Sarah were living in 1891.


Oh, what is wrong with me.

Ancestry has her transcribed as being 7 years old. I thought I'd checked. Apparently not.

She was 2 years old in 1871, not 7.

And there's no Buckinghamshire on the record at all (the two other people, the couple on the boat, were born in "Burkshire"). Place of birth may say Whipton -- it's a "ditto" to the place of birth of Sarah Price, aged 20, above her. It could be completely wrong -- she was an orphan, who would have known?


That has got to be your Sarah.

the one on the lock boat that says alphram?? tht is orphaned?? x

I HAVE FOUND HER!!!

I HAVE FOUND HER!!!


In 1881:


Name: Sarah Ann Chumley
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Matthew
Gender: Female
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street address: 23 Grimstone St

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Wolverhampton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 15

Lousia Chumley 30
Lousia Chumley 14
Sarah Ann Chumley 12
Matthew Edwards 40

Name: Matthew Edwards
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish: Wolverhampton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street address: 23 Grimstone St
Occupation: Boatman Traveller


Name: Lousia Chumley
(The image says -- Status: Cohabiter)
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Gender: Female
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England


Name: Lousia Chumley
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Matthew
Gender: Female
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England


The original record has Louisa and Sarah as "daur" -- obviously of Louisa. It doesn't say that Matthew Edwards is their father.

And the original record really does say "Lousia" for both of them.


I found this by searching for

Sarah Chum*
born 1879 +/-1

and there, second from the top, was Sarah Ann Chumley with father Matthew. It's her!

i have just had another look on the notes and for her place of birth i have chilton shropshire?? do you know where that is? cause i aint even herd of it..

Chilton is west of Kidderminster about 10 miles

This has got to be mother Louisa and other daughter Louisa in 1871:


Name: Louisa Cholmondly
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Elisabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish: Bilston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
Town: Bilston
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Bilston
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 33

Elisabeth Cholmondly 65 - head, married (no husband present)
William Cholmondly 33 - son, unmarried, Boatman
Thomas Cholmondly 29 - son, unmarried, Boatman
Louisa Cholmondly 23 - daughter, unmarried, Boatwoman
Louisa Cholmondly 4 - granddaughter


Where's Sarah? On that boat with the Harrises, I'm persuaded.